Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

[StillILearn]

Having finished reading the story (again) this morning , I am now fully convinced that HH was indeed a new (one might say born afresh) man by the end of his life; that he sincerely loved Lolita from the start, and that he ultimately and selflessly loved Dolly Schiller with all his new (if fatally flawed) heart by the end.

 

[steffee]

Having finished reading the story (again) this morning , I am now fully convinced that HH was indeed a new (one might say born afresh) man by the end of his life; that he sincerely loved Lolita from the start, and that he ultimately and selflessly loved Dolly Schiller with all his new (if fatally flawed) heart by the end.

I don't disagree that he was a reformed character by the end, but at the very beginning, the couch scene? And then driving her away from school, and in the Enchanted Hunter? I'm gonna need some convincing...!

 

[pontalba]

Having finished reading the story (again) this morning , I am now fully convinced that HH was indeed a new (one might say born afresh) man by the end of his life; that he sincerely loved Lolita from the start, and that he ultimately and selflessly loved Dolly Schiller with all his new (if fatally flawed) heart by the end.

Will wonders never cease!!
I am listening to the CD with great pleasure. Irons puts all the inflections and nuances in just the right way. In fact, I would have to say that his performance actually puts more life and meaning, plus understanding in the dialogue. The slight rushing, and subtly sarcastic or dryness is applied perfectly.

And Steffee If you could hear the agony in Irons performance, you would be a believer. I kid you not.

 

[StillILearn]

And Steffee If you could hear the agony in Irons performance, you would be a believer. I kid you not.

It was Irons who convinced me. That poor man only needed a little bit of love and understanding.

 

[steffee]

It was Irons who convinced me. That poor man only needed a little bit of love and understanding.

*nods enthusiastically whilst choking on tea* Yes, "poor, poor" Humbert the Horrible, all he needed was someone to "understand" him. *splutter*

 

[StillILearn]

*nods enthusiastically whilst choking on tea* Yes, "poor, poor" Humbert the Horrible, all he needed was someone to "understand" him. *splutter*

A truly mature woman, a woman of strong moral values, a woman like that would have understood Hummy better than Valeria or Charlotte or that dumb drunk woman, and she might have been able to help him to him to turn his life around whilst there was still time.

The book could be called Stella and Hummy.

 

[steffee]

The book could be called Stella and Hummy.

Ooh, I like it. It reminds me of the letter that nasty, vicious Lolita sent to "Mummy and Hummy", trying to sway the reader into thinking she was innocent.

 

[pontalba]

*nods enthusiastically whilst choking on tea* Yes, "poor, poor" Humbert the Horrible, all he needed was someone to "understand" him. *splutter*

Yeasss, the love of a good woman and all that rubbish!
p.19

Let me remind my reader that in England, with the passage of the Children and Young Person Act in 1933, the term "girl-child" is defined as "a girl who is over eight but under fourteen years" (after that, from fourteen to seventeen, the statutory definition is "young person"). In Massachusetts, U.S., on the other hand, a "wayward child" is, technically, one "between seven and seventeen years of age" (who, moreover, habitually associates with vicious or immoral persons).

Somewhere HH defines,and speaks of "girleens", but at the moment I cannot find it.

My point, yes I do have one!, is that not a woman, but a girl-child. /shiver/

As much as I feel sorry for Humbert, as attractive as he (supposedly) is, as warped and tortured his childhood was, he was nuts.

Yes, he did have an unsettled childhood at least. He lost, and hardly remembered his mother, he alluded to the fact that his father lost/sold his hotel. Now what happened there? Just before HH came to America, he mentioned that the hotel had been long gone. No explanation. Did his charming and loose moralled father gamble it away? We don't know, and are unable to extrapolate any reasoning. His father did teach him a few things, but evidently didn't teach him the rudimentary elements of life. All of this is not an excuse, but an attempt to find the reasons of HH's peversion. He must have been born with that proclivity, but I wonder if strict nurturing could have helped.

Plus the Annabel business must be factored into the equation.

 

[pontalba]

Just a moment, I need to get my hip boots out of the closet!

 

[steffee]

Somewhere HH defines,and speaks of "girleens", but at the moment I cannot find it.

It's way back at the beginning... he also describes nymphet and nympholept(?)

 

[steffee]

I haven't gotten very far so far I'm afraid... Chapter 6, but I'm finding it entertaining and much less 'heavy' than I previously imagined. I have just been introduced to the meaning of a 'nymphet' and 'nympholept' and the differences (legally that is) between 'girl-child', 'young person' and 'wayward child', and of course 'girleen'.

I think it may be Chapter 5 or 6.

 

[StillILearn]

Ooh, I like it. It reminds me of the letter that nasty, vicious Lolita sent to "Mummy and Hummy", trying to sway the reader into thinking she was innocent.

Yeah. The lascivious, lying little brat. I mean, the poor, misguided child.

 

[pontalba]

Yes, Steffee I did find the reference on p.19 "a sparkling girleen," but not the definition.

However, I did find something as to HH's guilt feelings on p.18....

While my body knew what it craved for, my mind rejected my body's every plea. One moment I was ashamed and frightened, another recklessly optimistic.

And regarding Annabel (same page)....

We loved each oother with a premature love, marked by a fiercenes that so often destroys adult lives. I was a strong lad and survived; but the poison was in the wound, and the wound remained ever open, and soon I found myself maturing amid a civilization which allows a man of twenty-five to court a girl of sixteen but not a girl of twelve.

So, Yes, Poor Humbert.

 

[Peder]

A truly mature woman, a woman of strong moral values, a woman like that would have understood Hummy better than Valeria or Charlotte or that dumb drunk woman, and she might have been able to help him to him to turn his life around whilst there was still time.

The book could be called Stella and Hummy.

Oh my Heavens,StillILearn! Lan' sakes alive!

It sounds like we are all wiping our screens clean this morning! That's probably why I forgot to post my previous post, dumb, dumb!

Brava StillILearn! Brava! You said it better in your first post than I ever have, for all the times I have tried. Super congratulations!

But I would have thought, "Young Helen Trent" Can a young girl of 12 from a poor mining town in the Northwest find love and happiness with a rich and handsome English nobleman. Stay tuned for Young Helen Trent after a word form our sponsor..../up organ music/

(In Helen Trent itself she was of course a little older and he, I think, maybe even a little younger, woo hoo!).

But you haven't told us "why?"
Dish us the dirt,
We need it,
When did you first know it was true love?
Peder

 

[StillILearn]

But you haven't told us "why?"
Dish us the dirt,
We need it,
When did you first know it was true love?

I think it may have been the sincerity in his voice.

 

[Peder]

I think it may have been the sincerity in his voice.

StillILearn,
VN did write it to sound from the heart didn't he?! I found it hard to disbelieve HH. Except by discounting completely what he was saying as being all lies from an expert con man. Which might be possible given his position in jail, but then there is no book left -- half a page at the front, and two pages maybe at the back, or none. So I'm with you.
And, if you can stand the ribbing, we can provide a lot more , otherwise just say so and we'll all get somber and serious, ........as well as we can, that is.
peder

 

[steffee]

StillILearn,
VN did write it to sound from the heart didn't he?! I found it hard to disbelieve HH. Except by discounting completely what he was saying as being all lies from an expert con man. Which might be possible given his position in jail, but then there is no book left -- half a page at the front, and two pages maybe at the back, or none. So I'm with you.

I believed every word! He didn't write the account(?) entirely from his own perspective... well, he did, obviously, but he included the "bad bits", the parts that we daren't usually admit, not even to ourselves. And he included some ideas as to how Lolita perceived him, and the situation, and herself. For all it was Humbert's POV, it was quite all-encompassing... Actually, maybe I'm not sure about one fine detail -- what happened to Charlotte Haze? Did she really get run over the instant she fled the house, and him? How very convenient.

 

[pontalba]

I'm not sure about one fine detail -- what happened to Charlotte Haze? Did she really get run over the instant she fled the house, and him? How very convenient.

Yes, VN, certainly does love those 'death by car' scenes. The whole incident begins on p.95. Toward the end of the account, HH manages to read some of the shreds of the letters she was attempting to post. p.99:

.....obviously referred to an application not to St. A but to another boarding school which was said to be so harsh and gray and gaunt in its methods (although supplying croquet under the elms) as to have earned the nickname of "Reformatory for Young Ladies."

So this was the existance that Charlotte was condemning Lo to, a harsh gray place with even less affection than she was exposed to at home.
I'd call her a selfish (female dog), but I'd be insulting the dog.

 

[Peder]

I believed every word! He didn't write the account(?) entirely from his own perspective... well, he did, obviously, but he included the "bad bits", the parts that we daren't usually admit, not even to ourselves. And he included some ideas as to how Lolita perceived him, and the situation, and herself. For all it was Humbert's POV, it was quite all-encompassing... Actually, maybe I'm not sure about one fine detail -- what happened to Charlotte Haze? Did she really get run over the instant she fled the house, and him? How very convenient.

Steffee,
It certainly was all encompassing, and he did say he was going to tell the whole true story, not to save himself but to save his soul. Which is an interesting thought, that honesty will save his soul while the facts revealed are as black and damning as they are. I'm checking to see if I got that right, it's so paradoxical. Yes, p308, "I thought I would use these notes, in toto, at my trial, to save not my head, of course, but my soul." So he confesses his sins (usually done to the Almighty, for absolution) and we the readers are left, by analogy, to decide whether to absolve him? VN works us into a tight position!

As to truthfulness, yes I do find him believable also. The only reasons I can think of not to, are two, and both lie outside the story in the real world. First of all his change of heart seems very sudden. Although there is the one place, which marks his transition, where he says he has lost interest in nymphets other than Lo, or words to that effect. (pontalba found it and posted it I believe). Second, also from the real world, we have our doubts that a pedophile can change his spots. I don't think anything says that they, or serial killers, can be reformed. So I think that Nabokov there, then, was flying in the face of real-world reality as now understood. Emphasis on 'I think' however, because I'm no expert.

But, within the covers of the book, I think one has to give it to him that his feeling of love is genuine. And then it is left to the genius of the author, and one's own personal makeup, as to whether that pulls at one's heartstrings or not, out here in the real world. It does pull at mine, even with my real-word reservations! Don't ask me, because I can't explain it.

As far as Charlotte Haze's accident, perhaps that is also a real-world reservation to have. But within the covers of the book, with no evidence otherwise, it's 'in for a dime, in for a dollar' isn't it?

It's a very odd journey that the book takes, to get us to end up sympathetic to both characters, isn't it? If that is where we end up!
Peder

 

[Peder]

So this was the existance that Charlotte was condemning Lo to, a harsh gray place with even less affection than she was exposed to at home.
I'd call her a selfish (female dog), but I'd be insulting the dog.

Pontalba,
But unless VN exaggerates, that was the older, very severe view of proper discipline for a wayward child, if my dim memory probing way back into the mists is correct. And whether it was still the view (or a view) when he wrote the novel I don't know. But if it was, it would certainly contribute to the shock and horror that arose if her behavior seemed to be condoned in any way shape or form in the book. Still to this day, young men are enrolled in military institutes, or academies, to 'shape them up' it seems to me? Just asking.
But OTOH I definitely agree with you, that is not the way child-rearing is generally looked at these days.
Peder