What book should be REQUIRED reading for everyone?

[SFG75]

I don't believe that you should allow kids to pick what the curriculum should be. If you do that, then you will have them ignorantly running through their educational experience without being *compelled* to read a work that they might enjoy. If they don't like it, so be it, but at least they know the story, let alone that it exists, and that others consider it great. We have vocational education students who take "their" courses, but isn't part of a well-rounded education studying items that may not make you do back-flips of joy? That is why those of us in the core areas of study in our state insist upon required four year courses in all of the "core subject" areas. There are some people who will never have the social capital or desire to read the greatest works that writers have produced. At one time in their lives, they at least should have that opportunity. I'm all for a high school curriculum that incorporates Lord of the Flies.

 

[Stewart]

Thinking back to my school days, the book I done was Sunset Song by Lewis Grassic Gibbon. Of course, I'd never have chosen it myself having never heard of him at that time but, on reading it, it became clear how good it actually was.

We did Lord of the Flies when we were 12 or 13, if I remember correctly.

 

[Rigana]

I loved Kafka (The Metamorphosis), Lessing (Emilia Galotti) and Sophocles (Antigone) at school, but we had a really good teacher at that time. Another favourite is "Aus dem Leben eines Taugenichts" (Memoirs of a good-for-nothing) by Eichendorff and his poetry, too.
It's hard to pick a book that should be required reading because everybody sees something different in a book, most people probably ignoring most there is to it.

Allow kids to pick the books themselves? Ah well, two years ago in my class everybody was allowed to pick a book and present it. We had it all: youth fiction, chick lit, thrillers, classics. A lot of them even picked a book they had read and talked about in school before, so they didn't have to read it again.

 

[Sitaram]

Viktor Frankl - Man's Search For Meaning

I realize this book is not fiction. But I think every high school student should try to read it. It is a short read. You can read it in a day, if you really try.

I am age 56. My step-son had to read it in High School, along with Red Badge of Courage by Stephen Crane.

I had to read Red Badge of Courage in the 1960s, and my father, who is now 88, had to read Red Badge of Courage in the 1930's.

I suspect Viktor Frankl's book will become a standard like Stephen Crane. Of course, Stephen Crane is important in the U.S.A. because it deals with the Civil War, so it might not be considered as important in other countries.

But Viktor Frankl's book is about coping with human suffering, and has universal appeal and utility which crosses all boundaries of culture and language.

I mentioned that it is not fiction. But, the writing of essays can be very creative. I have written quite a few essays in the past several years, just for fun, and to help me explore certain ideas which interest me.

I saw the 10 hour movie version of Brideshead Revisited by Evelyn Waugh and was very impressed. I went out and purchased the novel. It is not a large novel, considering that the PBS version is 5 VCR tapes. I suppose the novel would have a special appeal for Catholic schools.

It is nice for high school students to read a book and then watch a good movie version.

I recently purchased a DVD version of "The Great Gatsby" after reading the novel.

 

[Billy]

Maybe if you read _Lord of the Flies_ you would.
One doesn’t have to like a book to respect it or refer to it.

Basically I was saying, “and *you’re* a teacher?

Yes, I am a teacher. I agree that you don't have to like a book to respect it, but the students will have a lot more chance of actually learning something from the book if they are able to like it just a little bit.

Very true. But the last I hear Education wasn’t really in the Entertainment business.

You are obviously an intelligent person who enjoys reading and will do so for pleasure. When one teaches in areas where education is not desired or respected sometimes a little acting and entertainment is required if the teacher hopes to teach the students anything. And besides, why should school be boring?

Reading level, yes. (you did say you “love” fantasy)
Thinking level wasn’t necessary directed at you but based on foolhardy theories that kids should have a say-so in what they “learn”.

I do love fantasy. It is easy reading and usually has a good story. After years of 'having' to read books that require a lot of thinking and concentration, it is sometimes nice to escape to another world where very little thinking is required.

As for kids having a say-so in what they learn, I do sometimes give my students a choice about what we will read, but that choice is generally something like, "Do you want to read this book or this other book?" So I guess it's not much of a choice since I select the books they can choose between, but it feels like a choice to them and that is the main thing. And they have no say in what they learn or I should say in the skills they are taught.

Understood. Although I’d like to see a bit more on why you “hated” ‘Flies’ so much.
This all goes back to things I’ve been ‘talking’ about before.

I didn't say I hated 'Flies', did I? I thought I said I didn't like it. But anyway, that's beside the point. I had to read it when I was 13. At the time it was just a bit too dark for me. I couldn't relate to it at all. I didn't like the characters. I was not mature enough to appreciate whether the language or character development or themes or any other such stuff, was interesting and well developed. These are the reasons I would not attempt to teach it to junior students. Perhaps adults may be able to enjoy it or respect it, but not children. Perhaps my teacher made a mistake giving it to us to read when we were so young, but the result was that it left me with no desire to ever try to read it again.

And geography need not dictate anything, I’m (as are maybe a few others) curious what you would recommend.
Some of us know of a few writers not just from our general region…

I'm sure you do, but I wasn't sure if it would be any use recommending books for high school students when it was not possible to get hold of them. I already did recommend three - two Australian ones and one American one. Tomorrow I will check the names of the authors of some of the ones I have found that the students enjoy and get back to you with the list.

And one _hardly_ has to “finish” the book to get the conch reference…it’s not bloody “Rosebud”…
j

I'm sure you're right, but it was over 20 years ago that I started to read it and basically all I remember, other than not liking it, was that it was about some boys who were in a plane crash.

On another note, I don't want you to think that I don't agree that students shouldn't be exposed to classical and thought provoking literature. We study Shakespeare with every year group. It is a part of our syllabus that they must study one Shakespeare per year. We also study various poets: Slessor, Coleridge, Wordsworth (each teacher chooses their own). With the area that I teach in if the students are not exposed to this kind of stuff at school then they will never be exposed to it. For years I tried to teach things that I thought they 'should' enjoy. Novels, such as The Old Man and the Sea, Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, The Hobbit, Jamaica Inn. The Hobbit went well, but with the others, I was lucky if two kids in the class even bothered to read the book. It can become a little disconcerting at times and when it all boils down, my job is to teach them certain skills and I can't do that if they are not going to read the books I select for them. So although I would dearly love to see a lot of more classical literature introduced to high schools, I'm afraid that in certain high schools it is just impractical.

 

[jay]

but the students will have a lot more chance of actually learning something from the book if they are able to like it just a little bit.

I agree. And if a group of school kids can’t find anything to “like” or to at least learn from in ‘Flies’, they’re beyond hope.
Tell them it’s Eminem’s favourite book or something.

And besides, why should school be boring?

It shouldn’t be coddling, that’s for sure.

As for kids having a say-so in what they learn, I do sometimes give my students a choice about what we will read, but that choice is generally something like, "Do you want to read this book or this other book?"

As I’ve suggested earlier, I have no problem at all with that. A list of books and a class vote: I’m all for it.

And they have no say in what they learn or I should say in the skills they are taught.

Nor should they. Simple fact of life.
And they can look forward to University where they have to *pay* to have no say.

I didn't say I hated 'Flies', did I? I thought I said I didn't like it.

“I also hated Lord of the Flies when I had to do it at school.” [post 154 on this thread]

I had to read it when I was 13. At the time it was just a bit too dark for me. I couldn't relate to it at all. I didn't like the characters. I was not mature enough to appreciate whether the language or character development or themes or any other such stuff, was interesting and well developed. These are the reasons I would not attempt to teach it to junior students.

Thanks for clarifying. And excellent reasons.
I have no idea as to what age the book should be used, and I can’t recall when I had it, but with Baseline Intelligence slipping at a sharper angel, I’d say it has to be moved up to “high school” (grades 9-12, 12 being the final pre-university year).
13 does sound a bit young, for one has to grasp some basic sociology and such. Not the many world leaders even know what this means but…
I _do_ think education has to have some discretion to it. And as the calendar turns, more and more every day.

Perhaps my teacher made a mistake giving it to us to read when we were so young,

Yes, and while I understand the sometimes tyrannical confines teachers have to work in, there should be room to maneuver an opinion if a specific class is suitable for a certain work. Obviously a “you’re 15: eat your trigonometry!!” doesn’t work for every class.

but the result was that it left me with no desire to ever try to read it again.

I can only encourage you to give it a whirl. Who knows, it may be cathartic. And you _may_ even like it and who knows…maybe even decide to incorporate it into your classroom knowing that _you_ can be the guiding teacher that you weren’t the benefit of so many years ago.
If you’re dead sent against buying one, I’ll send you a copy – and if you decide to use it in class, I’ll buy every student a copy.

So although I would dearly love to see a lot of more classical literature introduced to high schools, I'm afraid that in certain high schools it is just impractical.

Hmmm, well. I guess this is just the way our species is heading. Soon Biology books will take a step backward and just explain that babies *do* come from storks in the sky cuz, you know, it’s easier to teach and students can’t get the grasp of learning trimesters and such. Maths will be revised to nothing more complex than division with decimal point and history books, well, they’ve always been filled with lies…

Thanks for the reply and the list of titles. Although I do dry heave at the thought of _The Hobbit_ being used in a teaching environment…

j

 

[Billy]

Jay, I do have access to Lord of the Flies, so although I appreciate the offer, I don't need you to send me one.

In our junior high school system (years 7-10), we now have to teach skills. The novels we use are there to teach those skills. It is not until senior high school (years 11-12) that we actually get to teach books as literature. And even then it is really only in advanced English that we really get inot proper literature studies. To give you an example of the books I will be teaching with my senior class next year (the advanced one), we will be doing: Hamlet, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead, (with these we will do a comparative study), Wuthering Heights, The Fiftieth Gate, and Coleridge. To compare it with what I'm doing this year with the standard senior class, just so you will see the difference in levels, we are doing: The Club (an Aussie play, in which we study dialogue and how it is used in texts), Briar Rose, Peter Skrsynseki (an Aussie poet whose name I know I have mispelled - apologies. The study of this poetry is associated with a broader area of study called 'journeys'), Billy Elliot (the movie, we study this in relation to the theme 'into the world'). So you can see that one course is a true study of literature, whereas the other one is the study of wider themes using the literature as source and content.

Unfortunately the study of literature is no longer considered either essential or important by any other than those who intend to go on to university. It is both distressing and sad, but the teachers don't make the curriculum, the government does.

 

[SFG75]

I agree. And if a group of school kids can’t find anything to “like” or to at least learn from in ‘Flies’, they’re beyond hope.
Tell them it’s Eminem’s favourite book or something.

This has to be one of the greatest lines(along the humorous kind) you've ever typed Jay.

It shouldn’t be coddling, that’s for sure.

That's right. I like to tell them that my room isn't Burger King-you don't get things your way.

And they can look forward to University where they have to *pay* to have no say.

Ahhhh yes, isn't it terrible that they have to read something that is above Danielle Steele or (gasp!) J.K. Rowling?

“I also hated Lord of the Flies when I had to do it at school.” [post 154 on this thread]

Gatsby was the most dreary and dreadful for me. The first fifty pages was the most difficult.

I have no idea as to what age the book should be used, and I can’t recall when I had it, but with Baseline Intelligence slipping at a sharper angel, I’d say it has to be moved up to “high school” (grades 9-12, 12 being the final pre-university year).

Other factors for this too, we in the states have a sports fetish that does irresparable harm to what we're supposed to be doing(i.e.-educating) Teachers will be hired strictly because the school needs a head football or wrestling coach. That given person might spend class time reviewing film or drawing up plays. Rather than study four or five hours after school like kids do in Japan, ours are engaged in over-glorified athletics.

13 does sound a bit young, for one has to grasp some basic sociology and such. Not the many world leaders even know what this means but…
I _do_ think education has to have some discretion to it. And as the calendar turns, more and more every day.

Having seen elementary reading books from the 1940s, I was surprised to see works by Keats and other big time literature stars. What do we have now? Now we have the kids reading "The Cat in the Hat" and other prurient crap.(Nice rhyme eh?, perhaps Eminem should talk to me )

Hmmm, well. I guess this is just the way our species is heading. Soon Biology books will take a step backward and just explain that babies *do* come from storks in the sky cuz, you know, it’s easier to teach and students can’t get the grasp of learning trimesters and such.

The state of Kansas is currently working on that one. They're half-way through re-writing science as it is.

 

[Billy]

OK, I checked the bookroom today and wrote down a list for you of novels that students actually do like. I realise you may not have heard of some of them.

Robin Klein - Came Back to Show you I Could fly.
Ursula Dubosarsky - Game of the Goose.
Debra Oswald - The Fifth Quest.
John Marsden - So Much to tell you
- Tomorrow When the War Began
Jacki French - Hitler's Daughter
Tim Winton - Lockie Leonard - Human Torpedo
- Lockie Leonard - Legend
Ruth Park - playing Beatie Bow
Anne Holm - I am David
Harper Lee - To Kill a Mockingbird
J.D. Salinger - The Catcher in the Rye
Mortan Rhue - The Wave.

Ok, there are a few that I know our students enjoyed. They are from all different levels, so I have mixed ones for the younger years and older ones. But they work well with kids.

 

[Jemima Aslana]

Personally I disliked Catcher in the Rye. I'm not quite sure why it has become such a classic. Perhaps because it's from a time when novels about being young were relatively new and this one was the best they had to offer? Was 18 when I read it... found it utterly insignificant.

 

[jay]

Other factors for this too, we in the states have a sports fetish that does irresparable harm to what we're supposed to be doing(i.e.-educating)

Excellent point. Excellent point.
The Idiot Brigade that worship college athletics (the end-product of what you are bringing up) should all be sent to a separate island, with their beloved uneducated pituitary and steroid cases, to act out their desires. Without a conch.
Land of Piggies.

The state of Kansas is currently working on that one. They're half-way through re-writing science as it is.

Yes, I’ve been (sickly) following it for some time. And now thanks to Bushie giving his “opinion” it’s the cover feature of Time and the New Republic (at least). Scary shit.

Personally I disliked Catcher in the Rye. I'm not quite sure why it has become such a classic. Perhaps because it's from a time when novels about being young were relatively new and this one was the best they had to offer? Was 18 when I read it... found it utterly insignificant.

I agree. A book that has a place in history as important for the time, but an important book, for today? Not by a long shot.
Simple nonsense that kids are _supposed_ to think it’s cool, so they do. Kinda like that Kerouac chap.

Thanks for the list, Billy. I find it _very_ hard to believe kids like _To Kill A Mockingbird_ (which they should) but “hate” _Lord of the Flies_.

Oink, oink,
j

 

[Billy]

LOL, you just won't give up. I told my friend at school today of this discussion. He has said that he will teach Lord of the Flies and see what the kids think. Like you, he thinks they will enjoy it. So we shall see. Perhaps he will prove me wrong and you right.

 

[jay]

LOL, you just won't give up.

Ohhhh, I gave up a looooooong time ago.

While ‚Mockingbird’ is great I’m just lost to the concept that a group of kids can’t appreciate ‚Flies’.
Every children’s social circle has a Ralph. And a Piggy. All kids tells each other to shut up and think _they_ are right (the whole idea of the conch comes into play here) and it has a great ‘what if?’ premise.
I can see these being far more enjoyable (again, not that this is the effect I’m going for), attainable and easier to teach than a semi-courtroom drama with a backbone of racism.

But good luck to your friend and let us know how he makes out.
j

 

[Stewart]

But good luck to your friend and let us know how he makes out.
j

With his tongue, I presume.

 

[jay]

With his tongue, I presume.

AHEM.

I amend:
Let us know the exact enjoy-to-dislike/love-to-hate ratio and final statistics of grades for any papers and/or exams given on _Lord of the Flies_. And also general comments on the teaching experience with this particle text from your colleague.

j

 

[Billy]

LMAO. Will do, but I have no idea when he will teach it, so you may be waiting for quite some time.

 

[Jemima Aslana]

I doubt any of us are in a hurry

 

[SFG75]

Nah, just encourage him to use all of the Harry Potter books through out the semester, and to just ignore that other stuff that no one really likes anyways.





































LOL-Awaiting Jay to have a coronary.

 

[Cretin]

I don't think there should be a thing such as "required reading" for schools. Were I a teacher, I would present the students with a list of books to choose from, and each student could read what they please (similar to my 9th grade ap english class - great teacher). It would be a list with various HQ reads - classics, sci-fi, romance, stuff from every genre.

In my opinion, The Lord of the Rings should be read in schools as often as stuff like The Grapes of Wrath. LOTR is probably the more influential book. Also, introducing kids to deeper science fiction books - like Heinlein, Vonnegut, or Dick, for instance - would grab more kids' attention and get them reading more challenging work.

I would like to see Robert E. Howard and Lovecraft get more recognition. I definitely think these two guys will be in the history books in 100 years, so why don't we just put them in there now?

Also, I love Hemingway and all, but I don't think a lot of kids will find him all that readable. I did, but I'm a nut. The Sun Also Rises hit me hard in 9th grade, as did The Catcher in the Rye.

"Required reading" isn't required reading for everyone.

I don't believe that you should allow kids to pick what the curriculum should be. If you do that, then you will have them ignorantly running through their educational experience without being *compelled* to read a work that they might enjoy. If they don't like it, so be it, but at least they know the story, let alone that it exists, and that others consider it great. We have vocational education students who take "their" courses, but isn't part of a well-rounded education studying items that may not make you do back-flips of joy? That is why those of us in the core areas of study in our state insist upon required four year courses in all of the "core subject" areas. There are some people who will never have the social capital or desire to read the greatest works that writers have produced. At one time in their lives, they at least should have that opportunity. I'm all for a high school curriculum that incorporates Lord of the Flies.

I bet 75% of kids don't even read the required books and fake the exams. Why not have them read what they might actually enjoy? What they might actually read? And everyone has the capability to go the the public library to get a classic - and many can even be found on the internet. And just who is to say what the "great" works are? The old man deciding the curriculum who is utterly unable to relate to this generation of kids? I don't think so. Let children learn to use their freewill and judgement. They aren't as stupid as a lot of us think - in fact, they're about as smart as adults!

 

[bobbyburns]

this is certainly the first thing cretin has ever said that didn't make me want to immediately punch him in the nutsack.