What is "racist"?

[Miss Shelf]

Racism aside, I haven't liked baseball since the '70s. I want to see players who love the game, not because they love the money. That's why I like to watch the Little League World Series.

 

[Motokid]

Right....White Sox.....not Cubs.....shows how much I pay attention to baseball.

But if the Astros made such bad player decisions how did they make it to the World Series? In 2005 they were the second best team in all the league.

Are people going to argue that they could have won the World Series if only they had a few black guys on the team? The arguement could also have been made that they wouldn't have made it as far without a few of the non-black guys they have on the team now.

The whole thing just seems so silly. It's causing problems where there doesn't need to be a problem.

 

[Zolipara]

Based on this statement, if Astros management were thinking that fielding an all white team would bring them more money through merchandising, the flip side of that arguement would be that you would be cutting off the black segment by not having a black player on the field. Which is a silly arguement. As you pointed out.

Using your own argument a all-white team could appeal to a larger segment of the white population and possibly gain as much fans as they lost by not having any black players. And white people usually have more money to spend.

The bottom line is always money. Winning in sports equates to money. I don't see how a business group, that owns and operates a major league sports franchise that is capable of generating millions and millions of dollars, is going to risk having less than the best players money can buy based on skin color.

Thats not really true. My experience comes mostly from football, but many clubs buy players based on their commercial potential rather than their footballing skills.

A prime example is Beckham, a good football player, but not exactly the worlds best. Since he joined Real Madrid they have not won anything, but they have surpassed ManUtd as the richest football club in the world.

There is a rapidly growing interest in football in Asia. This has lead to certain clubs buying for instance token japanese players (that play very few or no competitive matches) to "sell" their team to the japanese market. One player even got the nickname "t-shirt".

 

[Zolipara]

I just thought of another good example.
Athletic Bilbao, a spanish football club has a policy of only signing basque football players. But even with this big limitation they have been very successfull although they have not won the league since 1984.

 

[Libre]

As most sociological issues, this is complex, and there is no one simple answer. While I mostly agree with Motokid - that often we look for problems where there may be none, and the Astros being an all white team might be a total coincidence, on the other hand it might not.
For one thing, there are a great many more people that have the skills to play professional baseball then there are opportunities to do so. Therefore, it is a selection process, and part of that selection process MIGHT well be on the basis of race, even if it is unconcious or subconcious on the part of the selectors (club managers and owners).
For another thing, it is all well and good to say that racism does not exist when you are not the subject of the racism. Many people like ethic jokes (I do not) but when they hear a joke involving their own ethnicity, they are quickly offended. Many people object to "political correctness", equating it to a cowardly attempt to avoid offending anybody. The fact is, early movies and TV, print ads, and literature DID stereotype certain groups in ways that were offensive and damaging to the group. Today, when I see how Blacks were portrayed in Marx Brothers movies and W.C. Fields movies, etc, I cringe. When I first saw these films growing up, I did not. The fact that I now see these stereotypes as demeaning where when I was younger I did not is, I think, a step in the right direction.
Again, it is easy to think that political correctness is stupid and unnecessary, and to minimize the damage created by stereotyping, when you are in the privilaged group, not the underprivilaged group.
To quote the sagacious signature of one of our members:
"I could say more but you get the general idea."

 

[novella]

Actually, it is a problem acknowledged by the Commissioner of Baseball and many GMs.

I may be changing my tune here, in some respects. Gloat gloat, Moto.

Baseball management says that the best black athletes are not attracted to baseball, either in high school or college. They prefer football and basketball, primarily because of the visibility and big bucks up front. The irony is that baseball offers much more money over a much longer career and much more long-term visibility for the stars.

Anyway, there is a lack of black baseball fans (percentage compared with general population), which leads to a lack of interest in playing the game, etc. It's a bit of a chicken-egg problem. The upshot is that baseball would apparently love to attract top black athletes, but they don't, maybe because of the low-visibility farm-team system or because of the rep as a white boy sport.

However . . . baseball is hugely popular in Cuba, Dominica, PR, and Japan, and does attract the top athletes, so there percentages are way higher than their representation in the general population.

One wrong way to think about this is to say the composition of the team should reflect the city they play for. National drafts pretty much make that impossible.

 

[Mari]

I grew up in one of the sundown towns discussed in Loewen's book. My parents chose an unfortunate (and possibly sick) way to deal with it, so I was under extreme pressure to pass for White, which 1) didn't work, and 2) eventually led to a break with my family. Loewen's book is important, and he also has a website soliciting more information from members of the public who have inside knowledge of sundown towns.


As for racism in baseball, or any other business for that matter: Some managers make decisions not to attract minority customers in order not to alienate White customers (regardless of whether that would actually happen). It is possible--though I have no evidence of it--that the Astros management feared that more Blacks would attend games if there were Black players they could identify with. The management might then have feared that Whites would no longer feel comfortable, or safe, or whatever attending games. This kind of thing happens, though I don't know if it is a factor in Houston.

 

[Motokid]

For the most part American money is green (they are adding colors and holograms I know I know.....) and it makes no difference whose handing it over. Any business is going to cater to, advertise to, and market to the segment of the population that is most likely to hand that money over.

I have always lived around the Philadelphia area. The nations forth or fifth largest market in America. We are so starved for any kind of sports championship here it's rediculous. I don't think one person who follows the Eagles (American Football), 76'ers (American Basketball), Phillies (American Baseball), or Flyers (American Ice-Hockey) could give a flyin' rats ass what color any of the players are as long as they all band together to produce a championship winning team. Sports fans embrace their teams with such passion. I don't know one person who's ever said they refuse to watch team XYZ because they have to many people of color on the field. And most embrace any star player regardless of color if he/she proves to be a valuable asset for the team.

It's all about winning....not about color.

Speaking from where I sit, Philadelphia fans would take a purple-polkadotted, homosexual, transvestite, transexual, hermaphrodite, communist from Mars if it meant a National championship.

 

[novella]

How come no one's complained yet about the lack of black hockey players? You also don't get many Hawaiian or Japanese hockey players. Hmmm. Are hockey players even human, or are they a subspecies bred by NHL?

 

[abecedarian]

How come no one's complained yet about the lack of black hockey players? You also don't get many Hawaiian or Japanese hockey players. Hmmm. Are hockey players even human, or are they a subspecies bred by NHL?

I can speak up for two young hockey players I know. They are human, from real families and everything. They aren't professionals, just young men who love to play the game. Yes, they are white. Now that you mention it, I haven't ever heard of a black hockey player..nor have I heard of any being turned away. As for the lack of Hawaiian or Japanese players, maybe it's because of geography; sorta like on Cool Runnings.

 

[moonshot]

True Story
A teacher was arranging the seating for her class of six year olds. 'I know' said one little girl, 'lets put all the white children to one side and all the black children to the other'.
Later that day another little girl was asked by her mother if she had a good day at school. 'yes' she said 'apart from when one of the children wanted to put the black children to one side of the class and the white children to the other'.
Next day that mother went to the school and made a complaint to the head teacher and she said that she wanted an apology from the first girls parents as they were racist and it has been reflected in their daughters attitude.

Question
Are we all racist to some degree behind closed doors?
Or did the little girl pick black or white at random. She could have said fat or thin, short or tall, male or female?
Or is the race card being played to much?

 

[abecedarian]

Question
Are we all racist to some degree behind closed doors?
Or did the little girl pick black or white at random. She could have said fat or thin, short or tall, male or female?
Or is the race card being played to much?


I think it is something we all have to combat. Just as "Love your neighbor as yourself" is not natural behavior for human beings, treating other humans of different ethnic background with respect is not natural either. Just because it is our nature to be selfish and cruel to one another, does not mean we should not strive to be above that.
The race issue does get played up a lot. I've seen folks of all ethnic backgrounds behave in a racist manner. It isn't only a white person's disease. I know blacks, Indians(NA), and Asians who won't eat with, or otherwise socialize with a white person. A young friend who recently married a man of Asian descent, is ostracized by his mother becuase she is both Christian and white. I realize that there may be past ill associations with whites by these people, but that no more excuses them than it does me.
We all have to start by reckognizing the sins of those who've gone before, and learn from their mistakes, and determine that TODAY I will treat others as I would like to be treated.

 

[leckert]

Speaking from where I sit, Philadelphia fans would take a purple-polkadotted, homosexual, transvestite, transexual, hermaphrodite, communist from Mars if it meant a National championship.

I'm with you for the most part, Moto. Having lived in the DC area for almost 20 years (with a small break for a couple of years), We haven't had a championship here in a while, either.

I think, though, that the Redskins, the Capitols, the Wizards (name changed from the "Bullets" for obvious reasons) and, now, the Nationals, will market their gear to whomever they think will buy the most of it. Most marketing, though, from what I can see, is the shotgun approach. They will target such demographics as "18-45 year old males". That's a pretty huge group! I may be naive here, but I TRULY don't believe that (aside from the occasional idiot like Marge Schott), owners and fans don't care what color their players, or their fans are. They want cheeks in the seats, and points (or runs, or goals) on the board.

I think the media is fishing for a story, and anything that appears to be racially charged, regardless of its validity, sells papers.

Don't let the media sell you their crap. They are trying to create an issue where one doesn't exist.

(JMHO)

 

[Kookamoor]

It's difficult to tell the context of the original news story, Moto. I think it is interesting, and possibly a talking point, but as to whether the media is making conclusions.... I can't tell. Let's compare this to basketball, which is predominantly black (over 80% I believe). If the runner up in the NBA playoffs was the first team to be all black, I think this would also be a talking point. I'm not sure it's being racist so much as commenting on the socialogical aspects of the sport.

Read the following article, and substitute white for black and baseball for basketball.

Tue, Jul. 13, 2004
Basketball is flip side of baseball
The sport has become overwhelmingly the province of black athletes.

By Mark Lelinwalla
Inquirer Staff Writer


On the eve of the NBA Finals, Larry Bird made it clear: He said the NBA needed more white players, so more white American fans would follow the game.

Although Bird's reasoning may be questionable, at only 21 percent, the NBA's white-player population is diminishing. The question is: Why?

"Many times, white players select themselves out of basketball because they see a predominantly black player base, the competition level is high and they get discouraged or intimidated," said Richard E. Lapchick, an expert on race in sports and the author of the annual Racial and Gender Report Card series. "This is not only happening in the NBA - it's in college and high school, too."

Thus has basketball become the flip side of baseball, two national pastimes growing increasingly segregated as blacks shy from the summer game and whites look to sports other than the city game.

The NBA added its first black players in the 1950-51 season. During the 1960s, more African Americans joined the league. Then in the mid-1970s to early '80s, the shift from predominantly white to predominantly black took place.

Last February, the NBA's black-player population was 77 percent, while the white-player population was 21 percent. Of the white players, 55 percent were American-born and 45 percent were international players.

The NFL, like the NBA, is a sport with a black majority. Yet, according to Lapchick's most recent report card, the 65 percent black representation in the 2001 season was a four-year low. And the league's feeder system - Division I college football - was 49.4 percent white and 42.1 percent black in 2000-01.

College basketball, like the NBA, reflects the decline in white players. According to the report by Lapchick - himself the son of a white Basketball Hall of Famer - the number of white players at the Division I level in 2000-01 season was 32.5 percent, 2 full percentage points below the 1991-92 numbers.

Is the flight reversible?

"The influx of European white players in the NBA is going to open the eyes of American white players," said Jon Entine, the author of Why Blacks Dominate Sports and Why We Are Afraid to Talk About It. "Still, the white resurgence is greatly exaggerated because if you look at all the NBA's big-name superstars right now, they're almost all African Americans. It's not only an issue of race; it's an issue of body types, because African Americans have a slight biogenetic advantage over whites."

Genetics or sociology - the root causes of the migration by any group from any sport can be debated without end. What you can't debate are the numbers.

In the 1991-92 season, the Racial and Gender Report Card showed that 25 percent of the league's players were white, while 75 percent were black. Just three years later, in the 1994-95 season, the same report card showed that the black-player population was 82 percent, while the white-player population had dropped down to 18 percent, the lowest for whites in the decade. The 1997-98 season report card showed that the white-player population increased to 23 percent, while black players made up 77 percent.

Now with the 2003-04 season behind us, whites make up 21 percent, with black players at 77 percent. Latinos and Asian American players make up the other 2 percent.

"Obviously as a coach, I don't care if players are black, white, purple or green... as long as they have skills to play basketball," said Phil Martelli, coach of the men's team at St. Joseph's. "My team has white players, so I don't know why the number of whites are going down. Maybe it's a societal thing."

Grayson Boucher, nicknamed "Professor," knows about basketball being a societal issue. The 20-year-old from Oregon is the only white player on the popular And1 Mix Tape national touring streetball team.

"Subconsciously I know I'm the only white player on the team, but I just play with a never-back-down attitude because my skills speak for themselves," said Boucher, who earned a spot on the team after winning a competition through 28 cities. "I think a lot of white kids from the suburbs may be intimidated because no one looks like them on the court, but they have to let their skills and game do the talking for them to earn everyone's respect."

While Boucher thinks that intimidation may be a reason for the decline of white athletes in basketball, others think there's more to it. "White parents are partly responsible because some see basketball as a ghetto sport now," Entine said. "Some parents discourage their kids from playing, and in the process, their children aren't able to access their full potential."

Although the NBA does have its share of white stars - Predrag Stojakovic, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash - the numbers show a clear disparity.

"The NBA has been nearly 80 percent African American for years now," Lapchick said.

 

[Kookamoor]

How come no one's complained yet about the lack of black hockey players? You also don't get many Hawaiian or Japanese hockey players. Hmmm. Are hockey players even human, or are they a subspecies bred by NHL?

I think in the case of the lack of Hawaiians it's a cultural and climate issue as well as a lack of facilities - just look at the number of Canadians in the NHL - it's still over 50%, I believe, although that is shrinking as the facilities and opportunities in America increases.

The discussion about the under-representation of African-Americans in the NHL is not new. I did a little bit of reading up on this before I posted this to ensure that I wasn't going to be too far wrong. Hockey is a *very* expensive sport for kids, as unlike football and basketball there is not just a ball required, but skates, sticks and padding - all of which a child quickly grows out of, and then there's the specialised venue in most cases which is incredibly expensive to maintain and thus rent. The thought is that as African-Americans are traditionally of a lower income (although thankfully that is changing slowly), there are less opportunities for them to participate in hockey as kids and thus to develop the skills required to be professionals. As such, it has not become as culturally significant as basketball and football. This, too, is changing now. This is just based on what I've heard and read - there may be another side to this as well, for example societal reasons, similar to what was written in the Philadelphia Inquirer article I just posted, or physiological reasons.

 

[novella]

I think in the case of the lack of Hawaiians it's a cultural and climate issue as well as a lack of facilities - just look at the number of Canadians in the NHL - it's still over 50%, I believe, although that is shrinking as the facilities and opportunities in America increases.

The discussion about the under-representation of African-Americans in the NHL is not new. blah blah blah.

Crickey, I was actually joking.

 

[Scottishduffy]

If you want another interesting website with answers to questions regarding race. Check out Yforum.com , I spent hours searching this site the first time I founds it.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

I think that the racism card is being flashed around far too often, and is actually diverting attention away from those areas in which racism is actually occuring. I'm not sure how it is overseas, but here in NZ, there is a lot of hypocrisy and PC ideas influencing the way we deal with racial issues.

Take, for instance, the NZ Maori team. You /must/ be a Maori if you want to be a member of this team. No exceptions. Surely this is racist? They are banning people from this team purely because of their race. But this is not frowned upon, because somehow it is ok because it's an all /Maori/ team and not an all /white/ team. It seems to me that if a NZ White Team was set up before this, the organisers would have been slammed as racists before it had existed for even 5 seconds. But for some reason this team is fully acceptable

I also notice that people are deemed 'racist' far too easily. This thread reminds me of an event that happened at my school recently. In our school we have a group called the 'kapa haka', which is a predominately Maori group, who perform hakas and other traditional Maori dances and tributes at various events. After a Showcase (I guess you could call it a Talent Show) last week, a fight erupted outside the Hall between this group and another from a neighbouring school. As a result, the kapa haka was not allowed to perform at the next night's Showcase. A reasonable punsihment, I thought, but apparently not if you ask them. The principal was deemed a 'racist' for taking these measures, and if you asked them, she only punished them this way because she 'hates blacks'. This is nothing but ignorance and twisted logic, in my opinion, but god forbid /I/ say anything, because then I'd be a racist.

Sometimes it just makes me sick

[/rant]

 

[Motokid]

Is an all-girls school sexist?

I can't find much in print on the Astro's thing. What I heard was on conservative talk radio (Mike Gallagher). They could have been making a bigger deal out of this than it's worth, but I found the discussion interesting.

Yesterday they were discussing some college professor who was televised on CSPAN (I think....maybe it was cnbc...) who said "all the worlds problems were caused by white people, and the only answer is to exterminate them all"....now this guy is a teacher at some college.

I think it was just a reaction to the whole William Bennett flap.

It is amazing how things get around in the world of radio/press/internet.

 

[novella]

I bet that professor was Ward Churchill, who's an incendiary butthole, hate-inciting fraudulent poo-licker.