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Boston Marathon attack

guns don't help because a. violence creates more violence b. most law abiding citizens regardless of gun training have not had their inhibitions against killing another human being systematically removed through psychological conditioning c. most timrs guns are taken from their owner and used against them and/or in another crime d. most times crime occurs in such a way that even with a gun on your person it is no help because reaching for it would put you at greater risk.

It is better to mindful of your environment, to proactively cautious about where you are,to whom you open your door, not stopping in high risk areas etc

Sorry Meadow but you're wrong on that " most times" , in both those cases. And yes I speak from a professional point of view on this , and the reality is that at times all that will stop violence is the threat of tactically superior violence.

You are also incorrect on the " conditioning" factors , what is required is assessment and proper response and deployment , which most often does not require firing of a weapon.

Not everyone should carry a weapon , there are too many that derive their ideas about it from from movies and the media.

Case in point..Zimmerman..........a washout who should have never been allowed to carry , a wannabe that created a bad situation out of whole cloth and then responded with deadly force to a situation *he* created in the first place.

If you DO choose to carry a weapon you should be held to a higher standard of social behavior , if it's a crutch to accentuate ego or testosterone then the individual shouldn't be carrying a weapon.PERIOD. It's a tool for a specific purpose , the consequences of misuse are more severe than other tools.
 
ok look I'm from South Africa and our levels of violent crime are one of the highest in the world. Fences don't work because there isn't a fence that your average home owner can erect that is impenetrable and all they do is create a safe environment for the criminal to operate behind out of sight of neighbours and passersby.

Guns only work as a preventative under a few limited circumstances which on the whole don't outweigh the risks. Too many families die here at the hands of their gun toting husbands who cracked under the stress. Also here under no circumstances do you shoot to kill because you will be prosecuted for manslaughter. Thirdly all too often reaching for a weapon in the course of a crime will just get you killed. There has been a lot of success here with just plain old vigilance and community policing with neighbourhood watches. And tearing down fences also helps with allowing neighbours to keep an eye out for suspicious activity. Nosy neighbours do more to prevent crime than an expensive fence.
 
ok look Im from South Africa and our levels of violent crime are one of the highest in the world. Fences don't work because there isn't a fence that yr ave home owner can erect that is impenetrable and all they do is create a safe environment for the criminal to operate behind out of sight of neighbours and passersby.

Guns only work as a preventative under a few limited circumstances which on the whole don't outweigh the risks. Too many families die here at the hands of their gun toting husband who cracked under the stress. Also here under no circumstances do you shoot to kill because you will be prosecuted for manslaughter. Thirdly all too often reaching for a weapon in the course of a crime will just get you killed. There has been a lot of success here with just plain old vigilence and community policing with neighbourhood watches.

Meadow I agree with some of what you say, and have reservations about some other things you say. But in general I'm somewhat puzzled why you seem to feel that the way you do things (in one of the highest violent crime areas in the world, by your words) would be good advice for the United States, which I assume from your words has a lower violent crime level than your area. Might it not be that you have something to learn from the way the United States does things, instead of seeming to be so vehemently opposed to what is happening here now? From your description of things, I would not care to change places with you.
 
Meadow I agree with some of what you say, and have reservations about some other things you say. But in general I'm somewhat puzzled why you seem to feel that the way you do things (in one of the highest violent crime areas in the world, by your words) would be good advice for the United States, which I assume from your words has a lower violent crime level than your area. Might it not be that you have something to learn from the way the United States does things, instead of seeming to be so vehemently opposed to what is happening here now? From your description of things, I would not care to change places with you.

Because by all accounts America is becoming more violent and your solution seems to be to sign away your rights while becoming armed to the teeth with weapons that aren't helping the general mindset. Peace is not created at the end of a gun barrel whether in a war or in a war against crime.

The type of world you are just starting to walk into, we, and many others around the world already live in and just maybe we have learnt some things about how to survive the onslaught that you could learn from.
 
Because by all accounts America is becoming more violent and your solution seems to be to sign away your rights while becoming armed to the teeth with weapons that aren't helping the general mindset. Peace is not created at the end of a gun barrel whether in a war or in a war against crime.

The type of world you are just starting to walk into, we, and many others around the world already live in and just maybe we have learnt some things about how to survive the onslaught that you could learn from.

"Peace is not created at the end of a gun barrel." I like that! In fact I just love it!

For the rest of your post, that at least is your answer to my question. As t0 how things develop, we shall just have to see, won't we?

Thanks
 
ok look I'm from South Africa and our levels of violent crime are one of the highest in the world. Fences don't work because there isn't a fence that your average home owner can erect that is impenetrable and all they do is create a safe environment for the criminal to operate behind out of sight of neighbours and passersby.

Guns only work as a preventative under a few limited circumstances which on the whole don't outweigh the risks. Too many families die here at the hands of their gun toting husbands who cracked under the stress. Also here under no circumstances do you shoot to kill because you will be prosecuted for manslaughter. Thirdly all too often reaching for a weapon in the course of a crime will just get you killed. There has been a lot of success here with just plain old vigilance and community policing with neighbourhood watches. And tearing down fences also helps with allowing neighbours to keep an eye out for suspicious activity. Nosy neighbours do more to prevent crime than an expensive fence.


All due respect to you Meadow , but have you been out of South Africa? Look I'm not trying to bust your chops here , but you might have missed what I stated as regards my approaching this from a *professional* aspect , I won't go real far into it in an inherently non-secure environment but suffice to say I am ex military and ex law enforcement , and I was not a "grunt" , I have operated in South and Central America and within certain theaters in s.e. Asia and the Balkans , I am not unfamilar with violent environments ,ok? *Extremely* violent environments.

I'm sorry but I must disagree with your assessment of firearms , and no offense but you seem to be unaware that defense comes in *layers* , and the last layer is personal defensive measures. In my personal case any response from LE agencies is 45 minutes to an hour or more , therefore they ( any given criminal) have to get through my fences , then they have to get through the dogs , and you can well believe that I will have reached a weapon long , long prior to any gain of entrance to my domicile. Thus negating your commentary as regards " reaching for a weapon will get you killed" , and my neighbor are all quite similar. And yes my neighbors and I have a co-operative agreement , that said their response will NOT be an unarmed one , nor will mine if they call me in an emergency. Keep in mind that my nearest neighbor is miles away.

One cannot apply blanket statements and solutions to *all* scenarios , it simply doesn't work that way.

As regards you remark about " shoot to kill" , that is one of the most widely promulgated false constructs to ever come down the pike........you shoot to ***SURVIVE*** or to ensure the survival of others , of course this is speaking of civilian scenarios.

As for your postulation of cracking under " the stress" , sorry but folks who are prone to such things are not suitable to own a firearm in the first place , which is of course a *social* problem merely exacerbated by a firearms presence , but no more so than the presence of other available weapons i.e. edged weapons , blunt weapons a can of fuel etc.etc.

By the way , here, you don't want to be tearing down fences , this is ranch country and folks cattle and sheep get out , that too is a blanket statement that is applicable to urban environments and inapplicable to a rural environment.

I have *seen* enough crimes stopped by the judicious appearance of a firearm , never mind application of same to know whereof I speak.

As I stated , not *everyone* should possess or carry a firearm , however disarming the populace completely only leaves the available firearms in the hands of the criminal elements that will utterly ignore any and all laws , and leaves the civilian at their "mercy"..........and many of them are fresh out of that commodity.
 
Because by all accounts America is becoming more violent and your solution seems to be to sign away your rights while becoming armed to the teeth with weapons that aren't helping the general mindset. Peace is not created at the end of a gun barrel whether in a war or in a war against crime.

The type of world you are just starting to walk into, we, and many others around the world already live in and just maybe we have learnt some things about how to survive the onslaught that you could learn from.


If you've noticed we haven't yet signed away our rights , there are millions here fighting to keep those rights.

And sorry but the reality is that while " peace is not created at the end of a gun barrel" the paradox remains that at times the threat of lethal force can be a component of keeping the peace.

An example , the states with the *least* murders and the *least* crime in this nation are those with the highest firearms ownership , this is an indisputable fact.
 
The type of world you are just starting to walk into, we, and many others around the world already live in and just maybe we have learnt some things about how to survive the onslaught that you could learn from.

I believe learning is a two way street.
 
And yes I speak from a professional point of view on this , and the reality is that at times all that will stop violence is the threat of tactically superior violence.

Tell that to Ghandi who managed to get a superior armed force out of India with non-violence. Violence does not stop violence, it only escalates it. Has violence on violence stopped the violence in the Middle East? Or Afghanistan? It is only when people lay down their weapons that violence stops!

And sorry but the reality is that while " peace is not created at the end of a gun barrel" the paradox remains that at times the threat of lethal force can be a component of keeping the peace.

Astonishingly basic policing has been accomplished in quite a few countries without the use of firearms. Some places even go so far as to ban guns altogether with the statistics in lowered crime rates to prove it works.

Refer: Australia, Japan, Hong Kong, UK just off the top of my head.

An example , the states with the *least* murders and the *least* crime in this nation are those with the highest firearms ownership , this is an indisputable fact.

please show me these statistics because every other statistic in the world links gun ownership with higher violent crime rates. And more guns = more gun related deaths whether crime, suicide, or accidental.

Serious violent crime is not a problem for most residential communities in the United States. In the suburban areas where most Americans live, the homicide rate is comparable to Finland's (FBI, 1994: 191; Reiss and Roth, 1993: 52). Half of all American homicides occur in the 63 largest cities, which only house 16% of the U.S. population. Homicides in those cities are also highly concentrated, in a handful of communities marked by concentrated poverty, hypersegregation (Massey and Denton, 1993), family disruption and high gun density.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/works/wholedoc.htm

As regards you remark about " shoot to kill" , that is one of the most widely promulgated false constructs to ever come down the pike........you shoot to ***SURVIVE*** or to ensure the survival of others , of course this is speaking of civilian scenarios.

mere semantics my friend, mere semantics. In any case that isn't how I used the term. Here if you discharge your firearm and kill or injure an intruder, no matter how well armed, how many of them there were, or if he was in your blinking bedroom you are in serious trouble with the law! It just isn't worth the trouble to do it. Speaking to several people about it, the advice is, if you find yourself in that situation you had better be on good terms with the private security company who will respond LONG before the police will, who can take the body and dump it for you.
As I stated , not *everyone* should possess or carry a firearm , however disarming the populace completely only leaves the available firearms in the hands of the criminal elements that will utterly ignore any and all laws , and leaves the civilian at their "mercy"..........and many of them are fresh out of that commodity.

So despite your earlier assertion that 'every home should have one' you do agree that not every one is qualified to have one, requires extensive training to use one correctly ie you are in favour of gun control laws?

I'm sorry but I must disagree with your assessment of firearms , and no offense but you seem to be unaware that defense comes in *layers* , and the last layer is personal defensive measures. In my personal case any response from LE agencies is 45 minutes to an hour or more , therefore they ( any given criminal) have to get through my fences , then they have to get through the dogs , and you can well believe that I will have reached a weapon long , long prior to any gain of entrance to my domicile. Thus negating your commentary as regards " reaching for a weapon will get you killed" , and my neighbor are all quite similar. And yes my neighbors and I have a co-operative agreement , that said their response will NOT be an unarmed one , nor will mine if they call me in an emergency. Keep in mind that my nearest neighbor is miles away.

Aah the 'home as armed camp' scenario. If you choose to live behind your high fence (remind you of jail by any chance?) and dogs peering fearfully from your barred windows, gun in hand at the slightest noise outside, while every one else roams around freely that is your choice. I prefer not to so I live in a community without any walls, where my neighbours can be as nosy as they like, with regular patrols by both police and the neighbourhood watch (they both drive through at regular intervals).

Here people have spent millions on turning their homes into fortresses with razor wire, high fences, alarms, electric fences and and and - guess what. It doesn't keep them out. They still get robbed. There isn't a fence in the world that you can erect legally around your home that will keep a determined robber out. And putting up high walls isolates you from your neighbours. And as I said just creates a beautiful private space for criminals to operate behind unseen.

Latest developments in crime prevention through landscaping emphasizes that landscaping must create the idea that you are SEEN because this not only prevents crime but makes residents feel safe as well. Walkways must be well-lit and highly visible, houses must face each other, doors and windows and entrance ways must be open (ie not obscured by bushes etc) and visible. No places for people to lurk unseen in the shadows or hidden doors or windows for easy access without being seen.

Crime prevention is huge multi-facet thing involving communities, education programs, and effective policing but in terms of personal safety a gun just isn't the answer gun supporters make it out to be. If you have some one at your throat with a knife reaching for your gun is so NOT a clever idea. If some one has a knife at the throat of your loved one's again reaching for your gun is so not a good idea. Most crime is one of opportunity. Even if you are carrying a gun, you can't drive with it in your hand, so you stop at a light and some guy smashes your window and hauls you out the car - what use is your gun? If you are walking down the street and some guys jump out and mug you, what use is your gun? The ONLY time it is useful is if you have time to get it out and wave it about and the number of times that scenario plays out is far and few between. Most times, you are more likely to have your gun stolen along with your cash.

Anyway I think I have had my say, and expressed my feelings clearly enough.
 
Astonishingly basic policing has been accomplished in quite a few countries without the use of firearms. Some places even go so far as to ban guns altogether with the statistics in lowered crime rates to prove it works.

Refer: Australia, Japan, Hong Kong, UK just off the top of my head.

As far as the UK Police is concerned not strictly true, command units and divisions have authorised firearms officers and armed response vehicles.
 
As far as the UK Police is concerned not strictly true, command units and divisions have authorised firearms officers and armed response vehicles.

BASIC policing is done with out firearms :) and the country has strict fire-arm controls. People don't commit crimes with guns much in these countries - in Japan even the Yakuza avoid guns and co-operate with police on search and seizure. Personally I'd rather live in a country where a gun death rate of ELEVEN is a national crisis rather than one in which more than 800 people died from an accidental gun discharge alone.
 
As I stated , not *everyone* should possess or carry a firearm , however disarming the populace completely only leaves the available firearms in the hands of the criminal elements that will utterly ignore any and all laws , and leaves the civilian at their "mercy"..........and many of them are fresh out of that commodity.

The second amendment is the source of your problems if your shooting statistics are anything to go by. Last year in the UK we had just over five hundred and the US had just over eight and a half thousand.
 
Just an aside about the point I made about the degree of fuss relative to location:

http://infonary.com/rss.php?hr=http...ber-kills-4-northwest-pakistan-051833568.html

was this headline news around the US this morning? Has all the media coverage been devoted to following this story? Or was it barely mentioned tucked in amongst other news?

Was this addendum to the above news report:

On Sunday, the Taliban killed 11 people in bomb attacks on a political rally and two campaign offices in the northwest. The group is seeking to disrupt the election.

even mentioned?

Coverage, outrage and fuss is in direct proportion to location. Why aren't we making as much fuss about those bombs? More lives were lost than in Boston. More people tragically affected and yet where is the outrage?
 
BASIC policing is done with out firearms :) and the country has strict fire-arm controls. People don't commit crimes with guns much in these countries - in Japan even the Yakuza avoid guns and co-operate with police on search and seizure. Personally I'd rather live in a country where a gun death rate of ELEVEN is a national crisis rather than one in which more than 800 people died from an accidental gun discharge alone.

What's 'basic' policing? If the UK police need guns they can get them.
 
What's 'basic' policing? If the UK police need guns they can get them.

your bobby on the beat doesn't carry a fire-arm. Fire arm use by the police is restricted to special forces and special incidents. even managing riots is done with a shield and baton rather than a weapon.
 
Here if you discharge your firearm and kill or injure an intruder, no matter how well armed, how many of them there were, or if he was in your blinking bedroom you are in serious trouble with the law!

Is the world turned upside down? What happens to the intruder(s)?
What is serious trouble? I can imagine a hearing or investigation to sort things out (as here also, I would expect). But penalties? Really? And intruders go free?

You are still not inclining me to change places
 
Is the world turned upside down? What happens to the intruder(s)?
What is serious trouble? I can imagine a hearing or investigation to sort things out (as here also, I would expect). But penalties? Really? And intruders go free?

You are still not inclining me to change places

Nope you are charged with our equivalent of manslaughter and can face jail time for injuring / killing some one. Some one breaking into your home isn't a justification for using your gun. Even if they were also armed.

For example the charges against Oscar Pistorious would be no less serious if he had shot and killed an intruder instead of his girlfriend.

You don't have to say it, in this particular regard, our law is rather back-to-front. I could go into a long explanation about how it is yet another peculiar consequence of apartheid we have ended up with and is in its own way a form of reverse racism as it is generally White home-owners who have shot a Black intruder who find themselves on the wrong side of the law.
 
Nope you are charged with our equivalent of manslaughter and can face jail time for injuring / killing some one. Some one breaking into your home isn't a justification for using your gun. Even if they were also armed.
Here I think a usual criterion is "in fear of one's life" and I didn't realize you were shaving your scenario so closely. So what about "in fear of one's life?" Have to be actually shot at first?
 
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