• Welcome to BookAndReader!

    We LOVE books and hope you'll join us in sharing your favorites and experiences along with your love of reading with our community. Registering for our site is free and easy, just CLICK HERE!

    Already a member and forgot your password? Click here.

Hard.

MonkeyCatcher said:
Well seeing as how the founder of the thread mentions LOTR as the book that they found hard to get through, I'm thinking that hard can be interpreted in any way you please.
Click to expand...

True, then it evolved into a decent discussion on actual difficult works. If its path is to regress into books that are challenging because of dryness or the limit of the readers capacity then I'll stay out of the thread.
 
ions said:
True, then it evolved into a decent discussion on actual difficult works. If its path is to regress into books that are challenging because of dryness or the limit of the readers capacity then I'll stay out of the thread.
Click to expand...
Why does hard have to be interpreted in just one way? There are numerous people in this thread who have viewed the word 'hard' in both ways you mentioned, so surely there should be enough responses that cater to your view of the purpose of the thread. There's no need to get upset because some people interpret 'hard' in a different way to you.

All discussion in this thread has been on "actual difficult works". Some people actually found LOTR difficult. Surely you're not suggesting that people should only post books that you also found difficult - that people are only allowed to post books that they found difficult as long as they are up to your standard - your reading ability is much higher than a majority of the people on this board, but that doesn't mean that people have to alter their view of literature to comply with yours.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but books would be difficult solely because of the "limit of the readers capacity", would they not?
 
Sigh. Yeah, a books difficulty is based on the readers capacity. Not really the issue though is it? There are illiterates who would find Goodnight Moon challenging. Maybe it was one of the 500 eyez0me couldn't finish? I was hoping to encourage discussion on works that were truly hard. Works that are truly challenging.

Here, an example, say this was a math thread. Math that is hard we'll call it. The university pyhsics students want to talk about Feynman Diagrams, the grade 11s want to discuss the Quadratic Equation. Perhaps it would be an instance when the gr. 11s should just observe? Ask questions to help them better understand? Look at the threads we have on Pynchon and Joyce. I read through them, searched the forums, which led me to this thread actually, I googled around for a greater understanding. I didn't try and talk about Quadratic Equations when more advanced topics were being discussed. It's a difference in experience. Capacity acquired from experience. MonkeyCatcher, don't you expect your reading capabilities to be greater after university? After a few more years of reading? I bet it's increased considerably from this time last year considering how clever you appear to be and how much you read.

I wanted to discuss books for the advanced reader. Books that are probably beyond me. Books that are not for everybody. Pynchon is not for everybody. Have you ever looked at Infinite Jest?! Holy crap! But I look forward to giving it a shot. Do I have any particular intelligence? No, unfortunately, no. But I've done some reading and tried for the most part to read books that would challenge me. Not challenge my patience or attention span, but my ideas, conceptions, my ability to rationalize topics. Or books that would take my ideas and concepts to all new levels. Once I've worked through these books I'll be a stronger reader. Hopefully.

There is a challenge in discussing advanced work because there always seems to be a knee-jerk reaction when arduous works are mentioned. Derision rises. 'That book is over-rated academic foolishness, too esoteric, indulgent etc.' These reactions often come with animosity and are often plain ignorance to put it bluntly. It's not meant to be a condescending 'stay out if you find LOTR difficult type thing. Is there room for discussion of varying levels of hard? Sure, but why do it all in one thread to dilute the conversation? Think again of my math example. This perhaps is not the place to discuss these books? The majority of readers don't pick up books by those guys and those that do don't seem to be posting here. Or don't anymore.
 
ions said:
Sigh. Yeah, a books difficulty is based on the readers capacity. Not really the issue though is it? There are illiterates who would find Goodnight Moon challenging. Maybe it was one of the 500 eyez0me couldn't finish? I was hoping to encourage discussion on works that were truly hard. Works that are truly challenging.

Here, an example, say this was a math thread. Math that is hard we'll call it. The university pyhsics students want to talk about Feynman Diagrams, the grade 11s want to discuss the Quadratic Equation. Perhaps it would be an instance when the gr. 11s should just observe? Ask questions to help them better understand? Look at the threads we have on Pynchon and Joyce. I read through them, searched the forums, which led me to this thread actually, I googled around for a greater understanding. I didn't try and talk about Quadratic Equations when more advanced topics were being discussed. It's a difference in experience. Capacity acquired from experience. MonkeyCatcher, don't you expect your reading capabilities to be greater after university? After a few more years of reading? I bet it's increased considerably from this time last year considering how clever you appear to be and how much you read.

I wanted to discuss books for the advanced reader. Books that are probably beyond me. Books that are not for everybody. Pynchon is not for everybody. Have you ever looked at Infinite Jest?! Holy crap! But I look forward to giving it a shot. Do I have any particular intelligence? No, unfortunately, no. But I've done some reading and tried for the most part to read books that would challenge me. Not challenge my patience or attention span, but my ideas, conceptions, my ability to rationalize topics. Or books that would take my ideas and concepts to all new levels. Once I've worked through these books I'll be a stronger reader. Hopefully.

There is a challenge in discussing advanced work because there always seems to be a knee-jerk reaction when arduous works are mentioned. Derision rises. 'That book is over-rated academic foolishness, too esoteric, indulgent etc.' These reactions often come with animosity and are often plain ignorance to put it bluntly. It's not meant to be a condescending 'stay out if you find LOTR difficult type thing. Is there room for discussion of varying levels of hard? Sure, but why do it all in one thread to dilute the conversation? Think again of my math example. This perhaps is not the place to discuss these books? The majority of readers don't pick up books by those guys and those that do don't seem to be posting here. Or don't anymore.
Click to expand...

I think there is a certain amount of trepadation and fear that certain authors and their work evoke amongst some of us. I know I was intimidated by just the thought of reading Aleksandr Solzhenistyn or even Nabakov, and after reading them, I wonder why I was so worried. Yes, their work is challenging, but I'm glad I read them. I don't think I'm so smart, but I can see how my reading has changed over the last couple of years, to the point where I want to read more challenging material. I supposed we're all just works in progress, and hopefully some will want to try the more challenging material out there at some point in their lives.
 
Indeed abecedarian! When I started Crime and Punishment I was intimidated. I made it through. The rest of Dostoevsky become more and more comfortable as I get through it. My first Dickens novel was Hard Times, I found that difficult but after getting through it Dickens feels like home to me.

Ulysses scared the crap out of me...
 
ions said:
Indeed abecedarian! When I started Crime and Punishment I was intimidated. I made it through. The rest of Dostoevsky become more and more comfortable as I get through it. My first Dickens novel was Hard Times, I found that difficult but after getting through it Dickens feels like home to me.

Ulysses scared the crap out of me...
Click to expand...

I feel your fear! A couple of years ago, a man at church was toting around a copy of Crime and Punishment, and I jokingly asked what he read for "fun" and his sincere reply was that Crime and Punishment WAS his light reading...He didn't even know who Clive Cussler was!

Ulysses IS a scarey book...
 
ions said:
Sigh. Yeah, a books difficulty is based on the readers capacity. Not really the issue though is it? There are illiterates who would find Goodnight Moon challenging. Maybe it was one of the 500 eyez0me couldn't finish? I was hoping to encourage discussion on works that were truly hard. Works that are truly challenging.

Here, an example, say this was a math thread. Math that is hard we'll call it. The university pyhsics students want to talk about Feynman Diagrams, the grade 11s want to discuss the Quadratic Equation. Perhaps it would be an instance when the gr. 11s should just observe? Ask questions to help them better understand? Look at the threads we have on Pynchon and Joyce. I read through them, searched the forums, which led me to this thread actually, I googled around for a greater understanding. I didn't try and talk about Quadratic Equations when more advanced topics were being discussed. It's a difference in experience. Capacity acquired from experience. MonkeyCatcher, don't you expect your reading capabilities to be greater after university? After a few more years of reading? I bet it's increased considerably from this time last year considering how clever you appear to be and how much you read.

I wanted to discuss books for the advanced reader. Books that are probably beyond me. Books that are not for everybody. Pynchon is not for everybody. Have you ever looked at Infinite Jest?! Holy crap! But I look forward to giving it a shot. Do I have any particular intelligence? No, unfortunately, no. But I've done some reading and tried for the most part to read books that would challenge me. Not challenge my patience or attention span, but my ideas, conceptions, my ability to rationalize topics. Or books that would take my ideas and concepts to all new levels. Once I've worked through these books I'll be a stronger reader. Hopefully.

There is a challenge in discussing advanced work because there always seems to be a knee-jerk reaction when arduous works are mentioned. Derision rises. 'That book is over-rated academic foolishness, too esoteric, indulgent etc.' These reactions often come with animosity and are often plain ignorance to put it bluntly. It's not meant to be a condescending 'stay out if you find LOTR difficult type thing. Is there room for discussion of varying levels of hard? Sure, but why do it all in one thread to dilute the conversation? Think again of my math example. This perhaps is not the place to discuss these books? The majority of readers don't pick up books by those guys and those that do don't seem to be posting here. Or don't anymore.
Click to expand...
Fair enough - I can understand where you are coming from. What annoyed me a bit is that you insinuated that people who came in to post books that were entirely appropriate given the first post in this thread were now unwelcome in here. I don't see the harm in letting some discuss LOTR and others Joyce in the same thread - seeing as how this thread isn't overly busy, I doubt that it would be hard to keep track of a discussion that you do want to follow.

And to answer your question, yes I would like my reading capabilities to increase. I follow literary discussions on here avidly, and can't wait until my reading standard is on a level where I may tackle the notable authors you yourself have mentioned. I'm starting to gradually build my comprehension of language and writing styles, and am planning to delve into Calvino and Dostoyevsky soon, although I still read my fair share of "trashy" novels. My guilty pleasure, I suppose :D

And in response to your comments on Crime and Punishment: I started that around last week and although I enjoyed it, I put it aside for the meantime - it just didn't feel like the type of novel I wanted to be reading in the height of summer. I know that it sounds a bit crazy, but it just didn't seem like a holiday-type book. It required too much attention and focus, I suppose. I can already tell that I'm going to have difficulty keeping track of the characters also, what with their highly unfamiliar names. I plan on picking that up again in the beginning of next year.
 
To borrow your words, fair enough, if a conversation isn't going to develop in a certain direction that doesn't mean one shouldn't develop at all.

There is nothing wrong with reading trashy novels and I hope I've never given that impression. I'm bothered when people dress up the garbage to be more than it is or compare it to something in leagues altogether better but you should always read what you enjoy and never feel guilty about it just be honest about it!

Just wait till the next heat wave and you'll more easily be able to immerse yourself into St. Petersburg that blistering July. :) I prefer to read the Russians in the winter. Dunno why. Just do. The names take time to get used to for us native english speakers. The more attention you give it the easier the names become.
 
The books i've found difficult would have to be...

- Being and Nothingness : Jean Paul Sartre
- The imitation of Christ : Thomas A. Kempis (NOTHING went in my head about this book, probably because it all seemed a little silly)

I'm finding Ulysses quite easy to read, it just takes a long time :p Very rewarding however.
 
ions said:
I'm bothered when people dress up the garbage to be more than it is or compare it to something in leagues altogether better but you should always read what you enjoy and never feel guilty about it just be honest about it!
Click to expand...

Hey, if you like Dostoyevsky, you'll love Dan Brown.
 
Peronel said:
The problem is, I find it so hard to absorb the information that I often find myself sitting and holding the book, but my mind is going over and over something that I've just read in it.
Click to expand...

The trick, for a first read, is to follow the story and not bother about the detail. There was a whole section set in Brazil and I couldn't care about it a bit, but I pushed on and still loved the book.
 
susiekatkin said:
Miltons Paradise Lost was a load of metaphysical rubbish! And I only had to suffer it on audio!
Click to expand...

Well, I imagine the level of enjoyment one received from especially an audiobook of Paradise Lost would depend strongly -- indeed, much more strongly than most audiobooks -- on the strength of the reader's performance.
 
The hardest boon to read through was " Portrait of a Lady". I usually love that style and era, but gee whiz it dragged.
 
I'm struggling with reading War and Peace right now. Luckily, I have a few other books that I'm reading as well, so I don't get too bored.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top