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June 2008: Ernest Hemingway: A Farewell To Arms
- Thread starter Stewart
- Start date
saliotthomas
New Member
A third in,light stuff compared to the first circle(a third to).
Peder
Well-Known Member
Yes, they just don't make wars the way they used to. I had expected a more gritty story.
SeoulMan
Member
I'm at Chapter 18, which is about 1/3 into the book. For the longest time, I thought the main character's name was "Tenente" until I got to Ch. 13 when he said his name was "Frederic Henry." It was a relief because I thought "Tenente" seemed odd.
The first chapter kinda reminded me of "The Grapes of Wrath" with all its geographic and weather descriptions. I don't mind those kinds of descriptions. I just don't want them in the first chapter and for so long.
I haven't read much Hemingway since high school and Chapter 2 reminded me why. I don't like his dialogue. They feel stunted and not real.
I got interested in Ch. 5 after I read the passage: "The Italian salute never seemed made for export." I just found that line hilarious. That woke me up.
The first chapter kinda reminded me of "The Grapes of Wrath" with all its geographic and weather descriptions. I don't mind those kinds of descriptions. I just don't want them in the first chapter and for so long.
I haven't read much Hemingway since high school and Chapter 2 reminded me why. I don't like his dialogue. They feel stunted and not real.
I got interested in Ch. 5 after I read the passage: "The Italian salute never seemed made for export." I just found that line hilarious. That woke me up.
saliotthomas
New Member
I agree excepte that event this line ,did not wake up my interest.I don't know where we are(no feeling about it)the main caractere seem so blend that he make the stranger of Camus a likebale and warm personne,and the dialogue as you say are all to real.In a "passe-me-the-butter,do-you-want-the-salt" kind of way.
Some derscriptions,like the lift in the hospital in Milan(but there is many others);do not bring anything to the narration.
It make me feel as if he was bored writing the thing,the only living it up is when there's some booze include.
I hope it's a slow start but i really can't imagine liking this book.I was coming with a stonger apriory about Hemingway to be honest.
SeoulMan
Member
From my understanding of Hemingway, time has not been kind to his novels. However, his short stories, especially the Nick Adams ones, are considered plum.
Anyway, back to "A Farewell to Arms," if I were Frederic Henry, I'd feel smothered to death by Catherine Barkley. All the lovey-dovey talk. Oh, do you love me? Say you love me. We don't have to get married because we're already married. Oh darling. I'm married to you... Yikes!
In Ch. 7, during the episode with the Italian soldier with the rupture (???), it almost read like Heller's "Catch-22," except of course, Hemingway's novel came first and Heller fully explored the depths of the Catch-22 illogic in his own book. The soldier in Hemingway's novel talked about how if he was taken to the hospital, he would be operated on and then he would be sent back to the front line. So, he didn't want to get operated on. And then he said, "Jesus Christ, ain't this a goddamn war?" Read just like "Catch-22."
Anyway, back to "A Farewell to Arms," if I were Frederic Henry, I'd feel smothered to death by Catherine Barkley. All the lovey-dovey talk. Oh, do you love me? Say you love me. We don't have to get married because we're already married. Oh darling. I'm married to you... Yikes!
In Ch. 7, during the episode with the Italian soldier with the rupture (???), it almost read like Heller's "Catch-22," except of course, Hemingway's novel came first and Heller fully explored the depths of the Catch-22 illogic in his own book. The soldier in Hemingway's novel talked about how if he was taken to the hospital, he would be operated on and then he would be sent back to the front line. So, he didn't want to get operated on. And then he said, "Jesus Christ, ain't this a goddamn war?" Read just like "Catch-22."
SeoulMan
Member
I agree, that was sweet! Hemingway has a lot of funny quotes here and there that get me rolling with laughter. For example, in Ch. 15:
I have noticed that doctors who fail in the practice of medicine have a tendency to seek one another's company and aid in consultation. A doctor who cannot take out your appendix properly will recommend to you a doctor who will be unable to remove your tonsils with success.
Funny stuff.
And, also, some hilarious scenes, too. After Henry got injured, the ambulance people kept dropping him on the ground over and over again. "You sons of bitches!" Henry would shout.
Also, Rinaldi wanted to recommend Henry for the silver medal and to write up the report, he asked him "Did you do any heroic act?" and he replied "No. I was blown up while we were eating cheese." Then Rinaldi asked, "You must have done something heroic either before or after. Remember carefully." Rinaldi suggested, "Didn't you carry anybody on your back?" which is funny because Henry's knee was busted up. He couldn't carry himself, much less other soldiers on his back. LOL!
SFG75
Well-Known Member
Seoulman:
What an excellent comparison!, he did elaborate quite a bit on the geography and the view from outside the cabin looked. I could perfectly picture the soldiers walking by in the mud and muck, not to mention the artillery being hauled to the front.
Seoulman;
Libra:
The physical description is about the only strength of the writing in the first four chapters. I didn't want to go blazing through the book as I wanted to take a more fine tooth combed approach. I was very disappointed in starting it, hopefully chapter 5 will be as uplifting as some of you folks say it is.
The teasing amonst the soldiers was amusing to read, I particularly enjoyed the priest getting a good ribbing about walking back to his tent with women, not to mention the major saying that god wanted Austria to win.
A minor bit in the reading, but a good one at that.
On a side note, I've been doing some searching on the net and found an interesting university student essay regarding A Farewell to Arms and the depiction of women in it. It is worth a good read if we want to get into how Catherine is portrayed and whether or not Hemingway opened with such a sexual theme intentionally as part of a way to objectify and dominate and perpetuate the male hierarchical pattern of hegemony! Ahhhhhhhhh!!!
What an excellent comparison!, he did elaborate quite a bit on the geography and the view from outside the cabin looked. I could perfectly picture the soldiers walking by in the mud and muck, not to mention the artillery being hauled to the front.
Seoulman;
Libra:
The physical description is about the only strength of the writing in the first four chapters. I didn't want to go blazing through the book as I wanted to take a more fine tooth combed approach. I was very disappointed in starting it, hopefully chapter 5 will be as uplifting as some of you folks say it is.
The teasing amonst the soldiers was amusing to read, I particularly enjoyed the priest getting a good ribbing about walking back to his tent with women, not to mention the major saying that god wanted Austria to win.
A minor bit in the reading, but a good one at that.
On a side note, I've been doing some searching on the net and found an interesting university student essay regarding A Farewell to Arms and the depiction of women in it. It is worth a good read if we want to get into how Catherine is portrayed and whether or not Hemingway opened with such a sexual theme intentionally as part of a way to objectify and dominate and perpetuate the male hierarchical pattern of hegemony! Ahhhhhhhhh!!!
Peder
Well-Known Member
Hi Scott,
You took the words right out of my mouth . . . almost. If I knew words like that
Indeed, shouldn't we be assuming that Hemingway wrote Catherine's kind of dialogue with a particular purpose in mind, exactly to portray something about her, and not simply that he couldn't write any better. Fergie, later, comes across as a rather different kind of woman, and is more realistically portrayed as I recall, as are the nurses also who enter the story later. That he could write men is clear. But that he could write women as well, might also be true. Depending on the kind of woman he had in mind.
You took the words right out of my mouth . . . almost. If I knew words like that
Indeed, shouldn't we be assuming that Hemingway wrote Catherine's kind of dialogue with a particular purpose in mind, exactly to portray something about her, and not simply that he couldn't write any better. Fergie, later, comes across as a rather different kind of woman, and is more realistically portrayed as I recall, as are the nurses also who enter the story later. That he could write men is clear. But that he could write women as well, might also be true. Depending on the kind of woman he had in mind.
oskylad
Member
I found it a shock to go from Solzhenitsyn's noble, but flawed, zeks in The First Circle to the wastrel that is Frederic Henry.
While the zeks (or at least some of them) grappled with what it means to have a conscience, the only hint Henry has a conscience is found in Chapter XXV. Rinaldi said he kept Henry's tooth-brushing glass "to remind me of you trying to brush away the Villa Rossa from your teeth in the morning, swearing and eating aspirin and cursing harlots. Every time I see that glass I think of you trying to clean your conscience with a toothbrush."
Instead, we find Henry living off the sight drafts sent by his estranged family, spending page after page after dreary page on consuming every alcoholic beverage available, with nary a hangover to show for it.
I have never been fond of Hemingway. Nothing in A Farewell to Arms has changed my mind.
While the zeks (or at least some of them) grappled with what it means to have a conscience, the only hint Henry has a conscience is found in Chapter XXV. Rinaldi said he kept Henry's tooth-brushing glass "to remind me of you trying to brush away the Villa Rossa from your teeth in the morning, swearing and eating aspirin and cursing harlots. Every time I see that glass I think of you trying to clean your conscience with a toothbrush."
Instead, we find Henry living off the sight drafts sent by his estranged family, spending page after page after dreary page on consuming every alcoholic beverage available, with nary a hangover to show for it.
I have never been fond of Hemingway. Nothing in A Farewell to Arms has changed my mind.
SFG75
Well-Known Member
Can't say that I've read Solzhenitsyn, but I've read an author with an equally difficult name-Fyodor Dostoyevsky. Dosto's characters are a lot more complex and eloquent than Hemingway's, I'll grant you that. At the same time, "simplicity" in character dialogue is something that would be more fitting for young men entering the armed forces, than some formal upper-crust dialect or linguistic prowess. Each character does distinctly stand out though. The priest's piety comes out in his blushing and simple speaking. Rinald comes across as a heathen in uniform, a reincarnated Voltaire and Eddie Haskell mix if you will. Our esteemed narrator sounds like he is the naive one of the bunch, at least, he's the one that they try to influence and win over the most-whether it is inviting him to visit relatives or to visit houses of ill-repute, he appears to be easily led and perhaps a tadbit gullible. I don't know, I was tired when I read last night. On to chapter 5....
pontalba
Well-Known Member
But they both knew the "lovey-dovey" talk was just that - talk. Whistling in the dark so to speak. I've only just finished Chap 8, but I can see that they don't really love each other yet....I do see the seeds of love though. But at this point she is still mourning her dead fiancée, not ready for anyone else.
I do find the dialogue slightly stilted and a bit simple, almost shorthand, but certainly readable, just not my favorite by a long shot.
pontalba
Well-Known Member
I think you're onto something Peder, from what I've read so far, Catherine is still in mourning for the dead fiancée, and is unable to communicate that well, hence the 'shorthand' effect I mentioned above. Some people, when an issue is so emotionally charged, as this is for her, the words will simply not come, and what little does come out sounds....oh stilted is not exactly right for this, but maybe...stunted, it's as though the words coming out of the mind processes are truncated and each word actually hurts the speaker, so they use as few as possible. Death by a thousand cuts so to speak, or death by a few words.
Peder
Well-Known Member
My suggestion is not to despair so early. The plot and the characters take a while to develop it seems to me but, by the end of the book, I think one finally does see the major plot and it does involve the major characters.
SFG75
Well-Known Member
Exactly! As a matter of fact, it is Catherine who calls him out on the fact that he is just saying he loves her because of an underlying *deeper* motivation.
She also slaps him when he goes to kiss her. An interesting mish-mash of proper morals of the day and young love? Like a lot of relationships that start out with the young, things are a bit awkward and clumsy. If they were 18, it's clearly believable, just imagine them in the halls of a high school somewhere. I do agree that the scene of the first kiss was a big one. Unlike the feminist interpretation, I see her as being more than capable of holding her own, as evidenced by her actions. Chapter 6 went by in a flash, just an extention of 5 really in regards to the relationship. Chapter 7's jocular style where the men traded jokes they knew was entertaining to read. I could picture them doing it by the campfire. Chapter 9 was definitely a potentially powerful one, but I'm not certain the intended effect was fully brought home by Hemingway. The wounding of our good narrator was well described in regards to seeing a flash and having his breath sucked out by the heat of the explosion. The description of his knee being gone definitely got my attention, but I don't know, it could've been developed more. Saying the doctors were "red like butchers" doesn't quite convey they scene of what a field hospital would have been like in regards to uncleanliness and being a human chop shop of sorts. Notable point in the book, but one that wasn't so horrifying as it could've been. I don't know, were you guys impressed with it?
Peder
Well-Known Member
Scott,
I had very similar reactions.
I was thinking that Hemingway's relatively colorless treatment of battle scenes might have been a sign of the times. I can't think of any comaprable scenes from other novels, not having read any of the famous WW I books, so I don't really know. (And I am lucky enough to not have ever been in service, much less battle.)
But yes, the description of the explosion was excellent. The description of his mangled knee was quite tame I thought. The doctors covered in red might have been the only really authentic detail, for being so unusual.
I think we have become innured these days to horrible scenes of flying body parts, blood, gore, mangled childlren, and soldiers and civilians with (multiple) lost limbs, from seeing near-live coverage of war scenes and terrorist suicide bombings. I think we are both more knowledgeable and less shocked by them now, to an extent that Hemingway could not possibly have imagined.
So quite possibly he chose not to write in detail for his anticipated reading audience of the day. There's another scene later where the same thought occurs, even though we now see it nightly in the crime shows on TV.
I had very similar reactions.
I was thinking that Hemingway's relatively colorless treatment of battle scenes might have been a sign of the times. I can't think of any comaprable scenes from other novels, not having read any of the famous WW I books, so I don't really know. (And I am lucky enough to not have ever been in service, much less battle.)
But yes, the description of the explosion was excellent. The description of his mangled knee was quite tame I thought. The doctors covered in red might have been the only really authentic detail, for being so unusual.
I think we have become innured these days to horrible scenes of flying body parts, blood, gore, mangled childlren, and soldiers and civilians with (multiple) lost limbs, from seeing near-live coverage of war scenes and terrorist suicide bombings. I think we are both more knowledgeable and less shocked by them now, to an extent that Hemingway could not possibly have imagined.
So quite possibly he chose not to write in detail for his anticipated reading audience of the day. There's another scene later where the same thought occurs, even though we now see it nightly in the crime shows on TV.