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Labor Unions - Do we need them anymore?

I understand your confusion.

Unreasonable wages are ruining business. There is no doubt about that. Paying someone $30 per hour to pop rivets is absurd.

The union I belong to has not negotiated our contracts in good faith, so we are literally decades behind the cost of living. I work in a dangerous job, a life-threatening job, and I make less than the guy who pops rivets.

Does that make sense to you?
 
leckert said:
I am shocked at the way the dollar has plummeted.


I don't know much about all this financial stuff, and this is probably off topic (sorry Moto!) but was the plummet due to the advent of the Euro?
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Actually, the euro isn't doing so well either. The fall of the dollar is mainly due to the huge trade deficit (weakness in US production and export with too many dollars being spent overseas).
 
When I take substitute hours at our local music school I'm paid approx 30 $ per 45 minutes. (yeah, weird system, I know) Not because it's dangerous, it's about teaching the kiddies how to play music on their recorder and actually make it sound like music. In DK the overall system in wages is that the longer your education took the more you'll be paid. It doesn't go everywhere an especially in the private sector wages are sometimes much different.

Yep it may sound outrageous that I'm getting paid 30 $/45 mins for teaching music, consider this then: I've taken and paid for classes in my chosen instrument for the past 14 years... and I don't even have the 'big license' from a conservatorium (this would be free in DK but oe still has to be good enough to get in - I'm not)

Of course, I have to pay about 50 % of it all to the state through taxes, so here wages actually need to be that high, otherwise people won't have anything left to make a living for.

Lately there has been more divisions between political parties and unions here in DK, for the simple reason that our society is no longer put together in a way where one can just say: "All the artisans are in that union and always vote for that party". There are of course still unions for specific trades, but some serve many different trades at once. And there's no longer any system to how people of different trades vote. How then did it come to pass that the unions stopped funding politics? It was decided by them, one by one, in their annual congresses that if the members are divided very equally between political parties, they won't support anyone. Earlier there was a point in unions supporting certain politicians' policies regarding the job-market, but no longer, because our wages and general conditions on said job-market are now so good that it's people's opinions on other things that matter more to them.

Unions are like newspapers. You know where they stand before you sign up (at least you should if you've done your homework) I've always known that my newspaper is what we call 'social-radical' with much focus on the culture section, if that's not what I want, I'll find another newspaper, not go bitching about what my chosen paper has been for the past 25+ years.
 
novella said:
I've gotta laugh at this. I hate Wal-Mart. I hate being in the store, I hate the parking lot, I hate the merchandise, I hate the corporate philosophy, I hate their business practices. I went in there to buy my brother a bicycle and had to leave, it just made me feel so awful. I felt green around the gills just being in there with all those huge things and huge people and megasize everything. I really wish they would go out of business. The world would be a lot more civilized without Wal-Mart and its ilk.
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Wal-Mart sucks. I went in there over my vacation because I was in a HUGE rush and didn't have time to look for anything else. The fact that their benefits look good doesn't mean that they treat all of their employees fairly. It should be noted that Wal-Mart has been hit with two class action suits this summer. One was initiated by female employees stating that they had been discriminated against by receiving lower pay rates and being denied opportunities for advancement. The second has been initiated by workers in six countries (including the US) with regard to sweatshop conditions in overseas toy & clothing manufactoring.

Personally I'd rather spend the extra $2 for a waffle maker elsewhere. Plus, they censor their CDs, and I have NEVER had them open up extra lines when I was in the store. In fact, I've waited in line there for over thirty minutes on multiple occasions.
 
novella said:
I would estimate a living wage (health care coverage, rent, money for gas and food) to be at least $30K/year gross, and that's pretty tight even for one person. What percentage of Americans are making that or more, how many people are they supporting, and what if something happens to them? And what would you save out of that, for retirement?
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When you google "poverty level" you'll find that according to the 2004 numbers the round figures for what constitutes living in poverty is just under $10,000 per year for a single person, and just slightly over $20,000 for a family of 4. (In America)

While I appreciate the stupidity of these numbers not being higher, and I would love to see every working American earning a wage that equates to at least $30,000 a year with full health benefits and retirement benefits, I can also question what would happen to inflation, the economy, and the prices of absolutely everything we all have to buy in this scenario? $30k a year, based on a 40 hour working week equals $14.42 an hour in pre-tax take home pay. Are you suggesting that any and every full-time, 40 hour a week job in America should be paying at least $14.42 an hour?

Are there full time jobs, or even part time jobs that only deserve to pay an employee less than $14.42 and which jobs might those be? Are there jobs that should not have to pay health insurance or retirment benefits? In the sense that we are talking about unions are we talking about companies over a specific size or does size not matter? Should there be a union for Pet Store employees and shoe store stockroom people? I'm sure there are 10's of thousands of pet store employees in America.

I make custom jigsaw puzzles from digital pictures. Suppose the popularity of what I do grows to the point where I need to hire some help. But I can't afford to pay anybody $14.42 an hour plus benefits and retirement. I can only pay $7.00 an hour with no benefits and only hire this person for part-time help for the time being. Am I part of the problem? At least I'm putting money in somebodies pocket. At least I've given somebody a job.

I guess I'm looking at this from the perspective of the small business owner, and many are looking at it from the giant corporations perspective. I'm seeing the start-up guy with 10 employees not the Wal-mart with 100,000 employees.
 
Kenny Shovel said:
Seriously? Have you ever read Life: A User's Manual by Georges Perec ? Custom made jigsaws play a central part in that wonderfully eclectic novel.
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Seriously. I print out the picture on card stock. Glue it to thick pressboard/cardboard (just under 2mm's thick, around .070") and then run it through a roller press with a die that cuts into either a 4 piece or 15 piece puzzle. Both finished puzzles measure slightly smaller than your standard sheet of paper. Anything that I can print on regular paper I can make into a spiffy little, simple puzzle for young kids. Part of the Motokid Productions product line.... :D

And no, I have not read that book.....but I may look into it....after I look into the book The Prussian mentioned....after I read the next book on my list.... :eek:
 
Motokid said:
I would love to see every working American earning a wage that equates to at least $30,000 a year with full health benefits and retirement benefits, I can also question what would happen to inflation, the economy, and the prices of absolutely everything we all have to buy in this scenario? $30k a year, based on a 40 hour working week equals $14.42 an hour in pre-tax take home pay. Are you suggesting that any and every full-time, 40 hour a week job in America should be paying at least $14.42 an hour?
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There's something wrong with an economic system in which someone like Michael Ovitz gets paid a golden parachute of $140 million for NOT doing his job, when Mel Karmazin gets paid $34.5 million by Viacom for NOT doing his job, when the vice-president of the country is allowed to accept a $20 million golden parachute (Halliburton) from a company that will then be awarded millions (billions perhaps) of dollars in federal government contracts, but $30K a year for honest work is perceived as impossibly fantastic.

I find it really strange that some posters to this thread (Moto, Robert, for two) will argue that those at the 'top' of megacorporations somehow DESERVE to be paid obscene amounts of money, even in the face of poor performance, yet those at the bottom just DESERVE what they get. Why is there an assumption that those who make the most money deserve to? In my wide experience, the amount of money a person makes is absolutely no indication of their contribution to the betterment of the world, society, or even their own families, unless you measure a human's contribution to the world by how much stuff they can buy.
 
Motokid said:
I guess I'm looking at this from the perspective of the small business owner, and many are looking at it from the giant corporations perspective. I'm seeing the start-up guy with 10 employees not the Wal-mart with 100,000 employees.
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Novella, you must have missed this part....
 
I didn't miss that part, I just don't believe that it is at the heart of the problem. There's nothing wrong with part-time work--certainly a lot of people prefer it--or with minimum wage paid for part-time work. Every high school kid in the country relies on jobs like that. But you can't think people who work under those circumstances are earning a living.

In my experience, small business owners are typically very sensitive to their employees' needs, even if they can't pay top dollar. That's one of the pleasures of working for a small business. Need to pick your kid up at school early? Fine. Need to bring the dog to work for a day? Fine. I've also worked for people who would lend me a car or put me up overnight if I needed it. I am a small business owner, with a subchapter S corporation. Doing things on a human scale is much different that setting large corporations' policy.


There IS something wrong with systematic denial of fair wages, in favor of employing more part-time workers so that you can avoid paying benefits for fewer full-time employees. If you look at the overall bulk of money changing hands in the US, the fat cats are getting a huge portion of it. Richard Grasso was giving himself $140 million a year to run the not for profit NY Stock Exchange whose gross annual profit is in the range of $28 million, roughly 22 percent of his salary. Something wrong with that.

I don't advocate bankrupting small businesses, but I realize that large corporations are what put small businesses out of business, not employees' unreasonable demands.
 
Novella's right, neither small or big business owners are the heart of the matter. I would go further. "Labo(u)r Unions, do we need them any more?". If this thread was about whether big or small businesses needed unions then the thread would have been very short indeed. Of course, businesses don't want TUs and workers' rights getting in the way of the key point of their business, that is, PROFIT. Also, even if you don't accept that captitalists want to make money first last and always, the point of trade unions is to defend workers from over exploitation from their bosses when the situation arises. So, if the subject was rape, say, instead of exploitation, just exactly how logical would you find it to ask the accused rapist if he was guilty or not guilty. Of course you look at the evidence of the victim first and take the accused answer as being read. Innocent of course!!
The subject of whether we need TUs or not these days, depends on the needs of workers, not employers, big or small. If there are no trade unions, then employers are free to do as they like. Employers, big or small, are not the section of society best known for their philanthopy.
 
linda,

That's on a lighter note?! Yikes. The lyrics are clever, but I'm not sure things are THAT bad. :eek: But it does prompt a little thinking. $300 billion in US dollars was invested last year in overseas companies. Our biggest export is money.
 
I suppose you(novella) won't be in the mood to tell me what your S Corporation is or what your business is huh?

I don't see how you can seperate minimum wage from living wage though. The lowest paying jobs are going to be the jobs most people don't want, which means the least educated and the least employable people will filter down to those jobs.

Any job that pays a living wage of $30k a year (just for the sake of arguement) and offers health, dental, daycare, and retirement benefits is going to have some very stiff competition for employees who want that job. All the people now, who are earning only $10k a year are not magically going to be able to make $30k a year.

How do you impliment a "living wage" without effecting everybody but the very people who make up the extreme top 1% of the richest population?

Should the average working class American make more money? Sure. Everybody should be able to make enough money to live the lifestyle they want, and also be able to save for retirement, and put kids through college....The theory is beautiful and grand. How to make it a reality is the tough question?

Exactly how would you make it so the 50 year old lady who works in the Mall at the Foot Locker, and gets customers shoes from the stockroom can be paid $30k a year with full benefits and retirement? And what about the Cashier at The Foot Locker?

Do some people make obscene amounts of money. You bet your ass. There was a story in my local paper about bathroom modifications, and one lady spent $100k on having her bathroom re-modeled. Obscene? Yep. But she employeed working Americans to do the remodeling. She bought from American stores who employ American workers. The crap she bought was made by people who got paid to make the crap.

Why does anybody need a Mercedes when a Honda will do the same thing? I don't see the point for bashing the rich just because they are rich. Many rich people donate tons of money to charity. They employ the services of many people and create jobs. In a free society you can't blaim those that prosper.
 
Motokid said:
Any job that pays a living wage of $30k a year (just for the sake of arguement) and offers health, dental, daycare, and retirement benefits is going to have some very stiff competition for employees who want that job. All the people now, who are earning only $10k a year are not magically going to be able to make $30k a year.


Exactly how would you make it so the 50 year old lady who works in the Mall at the Foot Locker, and gets customers shoes from the stockroom can be paid $30k a year with full benefits and retirement? And what about the Cashier at The Foot Locker?

.
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First of all, my 30K living wage is inclusive of health benefits, etc. (see previous post). And the lady in the mall would only be earning $15/hr full time in order to make that. I really don't think that's a lot when you consider what things cost. Do you?

Further, I don't think everyone should have 'the lifestyle they want.' That's silly. Should they be able to have a safe home, be able to get to work, be able to pay for food. Yeah.
 
novella said:
I really don't think that's a lot when you consider what things cost. Do you?
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What would the cost of things be if $15.00 an hour was what most full time employees made?
 
novella said:
Should they be able to have a safe home, be able to get to work, be able to pay for food. Yeah.
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Describe this? Where should the home be located? Inner city? Suburbs? Country? What kind of work? How much and what kind of food?

The safe home is the biggest question here, at least for me to understand.
Safe based on who's interpretation?
 
Motokid said:
What would the cost of things be if $15.00 an hour was what most full time employees made?
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Geez, Moto. Paying employees is a small part of a big company's overhead these days. Their advertising budgets are WAY bigger. What makes you think the effect would be so drastic? Besides, if you take a tenth of what one of the Walton kids makes a year and distributed it among their employees, you'd probably be there. That's the point.
 
Motokid said:
Describe this? Where should the home be located? Inner city? Suburbs? Country? What kind of work? How much and what kind of food?

The safe home is the biggest question here, at least for me to understand.
Safe based on who's interpretation?
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Um, not a trailer below sea level in the bayou with no utilities? Something with electricity and running water where your life is not under threat would be nice. That's all.
 
novella said:
Um, not a trailer below sea level in the bayou with no utilities? Something with electricity and running water where your life is not under threat would be nice. That's all.
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What do you do with the 10's of thousands of people in every city in America that are living in Section 8 housing, collecting food stamps? How many thousands/100's of thousands would you estimate are living in "unsafe" places? My guess would be it might be millions. Do you just build "safe" housing in the suburbs and give the home away? Where do those people work? What about transportation? There may be a few safe places to live in most American cities, but there are huge portions of most larger cities that are by no means safe for families to live in.

I was watching some of the Katrina coverage. A lady was interviewed in one of the shelters. She could not have been older than 30 by her looks. She had 7 kids. No mention of dad, or any father for that matter. It was all about her and her 7 kids and how hard a time she was having trying to get them fed. What do you do with people like that? She'd need to make $50-75k and be supplied with a nanny and/or paid daycare to care for her children while she worked.
 
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