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Name a "Mainstream BlockBuster" you actually like!

"I would suggest that blockbuster type novels promote this type of mindless reading, where engagement isn't really required and where the aim is to get to the end as quickly as possible. Such reading is no different to the cereal packet, or, frankly, going the toilet. It's just a way of wasting time."

I'd say this statement goes a bit beyond thinking of some books as stepping stones.

It appears there are some who think that those who simply read, for nothing other than pure enjoyment and escape from reality, are merely wasting their time that could otherwise be filled by recycling last nights dinner into the toilet.
 
Martin - that has all been explained earlier in the thread. Do keep up.

Motokid - enjoyment is of course a huge part of reading, and no book is worth reading if it isn't enjoyable. On a one-to-one level, there really isn't anything wrong with people reading blockbusters and enjoying them. But if that is what the vast, vast majority of people are doing, then that can become a problem. Shade mentioned earlier in the thread the 'lowest common denominator'. Is Eastenders really the peak of televisual drama? Is the Sun the greatest newpaper in print? Is the Crazy Frog thing a great piece of music? No, no and no. But if large numbers of people think that this really is the best it gets then I would say that we might have a bit of a problem there.
 
"But if large numbers of people think that this really is the best it gets then I would say that we might have a bit of a problem there."

Now that is something that I can agree with 100%. Well said.
 
Douglas Adams (from Shade said:
I don't accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me "Well, you haven't been there, have you? You haven't seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid" - then I can't even be bothered to argue.
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Yes, there is a 'burden of proof' when it comes to scientific information. But as with anything artistic, as I believe writing to be, there is an element of subjectivity that depends on the the viewer/reader. Once again with the musical comparison there is value to be placed in many different types of music. They all serve a purpose. While I would far prefer the works of Bach, Paul Simon and Billy Joel to the Spice Girls, the latter fills a niche. People enjoy dancing to it and singing along with the simple lyrics. The manner in which it is produced shouldn't matter so long as people are enjoying it.

Toadal said:
I have been following this thread with some interest and continue to be flabbergasted at some people's ability to miss the point entirely. The quoted post above, stating that "good" and "bad" in literature depends on the reader, is utter gibberish, and a classic example of the nonsense of relativism. I doubt that Shade is proclaiming himself as being the ultimate arbiter of what constitutes good writing. What Shade is saying though is that through reading quality books on a regular basis he has learnt how to recognise some examples of good writing. Does he know more than John Carey? No. Does he know enought to recognise that Cloud Atlas is better than (say) The Da Vinci Code? Yes.
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Gibberish? To say that everyone has a valid opinion when interpretting a piece of writing? Sorry, I don't believe in such dictatorial viewpoints. We can't all be as well educated as you, but we still have a right to express which books we do and don't like. They may not all have the accepted viewpoint of 'literary value', but they are certainly valuable to those who take the time to read them. Unlike going to the toilet, reading is a choice that people make for their own enjoyment. What I enjoy is 'good' for me, and what I don't like I may term as 'bad'. I have evidence to back this up, certainly. It will differ because we have different experiences. Just as a 10 year old is unlikely to appreciate Anton Chekov, a 30 year old may not be inclined to like the style of George Orwell. Who gives a crap what their basis is? They either like it or they don't! Why is their taste such a concern of yours? Everybody judges artistic merit on their own set of standards.

I know we've gotten off topic from Moto's original post. But Shade in earlier posts and Toadal in more recent posts said some fairly derogatory things about the act of reading and about the validity of peoples opinions that I found insulting. Those of you who seem to agree with this viewpoint even disagree with each other about the validity of works:

novella said:
Further to what Toadal is saying here, there are degrees of engagement. When my son was 12 he got really into Robert Ludlum and John Le Carre. For his maturity level, these were engaging and stimulating because of plot complexity and just sheer length. But to read only at that level for his whole adulthood would be very limiting.
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shade said:
Hey, as far as I'm concerned, le Carré is one of the good guys! He's an elegant, intelligent writer.
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Such a difference of opinion is what makes us human.

Stewart said:
Go to the Dan Brown forums and read the sheer number of people saying I've read all of Dan Brown's books and can't wait for the next one before going on to say that they will read and reread Brown's books until the next one.
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Given that this author upsets you so much, why go to the forums and read about him? So he's successful and people like him. Big deal. Get over it. I'm looking forward to the next Terry Goodkind book despite the fact that he gets flailed for his writing on a regular basis. So what? I like it. I have a right to my opinion.

Toadal said:
But a question is asked and it's reasonable to answer it as truthfully as possible. Am I really insulting people who like a certain book if I say that it isn't of the highest literary merit?
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No, I think that you expressing your opinion like that is not. However if you choose to express you opinion like this..:

Toadal said:
I would suggest that blockbuster type novels promote this type of mindless reading, where engagement isn't really required and where the aim is to get to the end as quickly as possible. Such reading is no different to the cereal packet, or, frankly, going the toilet. It's just a way of wasting time.
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... well, that is insulting.

There are so many people in this world who don't read, and I think it is a shame. When books make the news, be they Harry Potter, Dan Brown or whatever, they encourage others to read. Some people do not appreciate books that I would deem of higher literary merit (such as modern writers David Malouf and Tim Winton) and given that we don't all have the same education and literary abilities that is unlikely to change. But until all those Dan Brown lovers start condemning your tastes for liking more literary books, and trying to tell you that they are 'bad', I don't really see the need to force opinions onto others. Not everyone wants to read such literature, so leave them be to enjoy themselves.
 
Just as a 10 year old is unlikely to appreciate Anton Chekov, a 30 year old may not be inclined to like the style of George Orwell. Who gives a crap what their basis is?
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Not sure what you're getting at here, Kookamoor. The reason a ten-year-old is unlikely to appreciate Chekhov is because they're not old enough. Do you mean a 30-year-old isn't old enough to appreciate George Orwell? Or are you saying that the opinions of a 10-year-old and a 30-year-old are equally valid in assessing the merits of Chekhov or Orwell? This isn't a rhetorical question, by the way, I'm asking as I feel I must have misinterpreted you, as nobody would seriously make such a suggestion, so I'm guessing you meant something else that I've failed to pick up on.
 
Or to address the issue of valid viewpoints another way (bearing in mind that all comparisons with non-book stuff is unhelpful, hem hem). Say you know lots about motorbikes and I know nothing (which is half true anyway). We go a motorbike showroom to try to find the best one we can. You select one which has - I dunno - oodles of throttle, safety features, stunning design, a reputable manufacturer and whatever else might be recognised desirable qualities among the vroom-vroom cognoscenti. I respond, "No way! It's a horrible colour! I prefer this one, it's red," while pointing to a clapped out old piece of shit alongside it. The red one is more to my taste; but that does not make it, using the objective standards established among motorcycle experts, a good bike.

On the other hand I just asked my three-year-old daughter what she thought of Jeffrey Archer's As The Crow Flies, which I found banal, full of clichés and recycled ideas, inelegantly written, with no imagination and glaring unexplained jumps in characterisation. She, however, liked it because of a scene on page 120 where "funny man done a poo."

Yes, I see what you mean.
 
Shade said:
Or are you saying that the opinions of a 10-year-old and a 30-year-old are equally valid in assessing the merits of Chekhov or Orwell? This isn't a rhetorical question, by the way, I'm asking as I feel I must have misinterpreted you, as nobody would seriously make such a suggestion, so I'm guessing you meant something else that I've failed to pick up on.
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Everyone assesses literature, and indeed any artistic venture, based upon their own experience. My point is that while we expect a 10 year old not to have the experience and understanding to appreciate Chekhov, some people assume that when one is of a certain age they will. What if they do not? What if a 30 year old doesn't like Orwell's work? The reasons for not appreciating the book may be based on the plotline, the writing style or the subject matter. My point is simply that if people want to read Jeffery Archer then they should not be thought somehow lesser, or have their choices criticised. That is what started this debate, the concept that people reading what may be considered 'unliterary' would be better off not reading at all. People do not read books to "waste time" they read them because they enjoy them.

And the motorcycle comment is quite simply ridiculous, as I believe you realise, Shade. We are talking about artistic appreciation, where 'good' and 'bad' are subjective, and depend on the reader/viewer. If I go to buy a motorcycle, I will consult an expert. If I go to find a book to read I will use my own judgement to decide its merits. I may look at various reviews to base this on, but ultimately I will decide for myself.
 
but wait... if I decide to buy the rust bucket, regardless of what anybody else says, and all the experts agree that I'm making the wrong decision, but I buy it any way, and I'm happy and content with my purchase, who are you to say that I made the wrong decision, or that my purchase was a waste of time and money?

All that matters is that I am happy with my purchase. Regardless of what anybody else thinks. Or irregardless, but that's in a different thread....

There's a post of mine in the "Only in the UK" thread about an auction where people can buy paintings that a monkey painted. They are being sold as serious works of art, not as a joke. When it comes to art, and/or people's happiness the so called "experts" can, for all intensive purposes, go hang themselves. They are only good for gathering various opinions. Opinions that may be no better, or no worse than anybody elses.
 
Everyone assesses literature, and indeed any artistic venture, based upon their own experience. My point is that while we expect a 10 year old not to have the experience and understanding to appreciate Chekhov, some people assume that when one is of a certain age they will. What if they do not? What if a 30 year old doesn't like Orwell's work?
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It's true that people don't have to like Orwell's work, and we've already agreed that tastes differ. However I do believe three things very strongly. First, if everyone read widely - a range of books, literary and populist - then they may not like Orwell but by the age of 30 they would be able to appreciate and understand him (or Chekhov) - which is different from liking, though it could lead to liking - and recognise his qualities, even if they decided he wasn't to their tastes.

Second, I believe that people who have read widely have the understanding (by reading a wide range of books) to give their opinions more authority, and deserving of more time, consideration and respect, than the opinion of those who have not. Which is why I dispute that all opinions are equally valid.

Third, I think if one has progressed, in the stepping-stone sense suggested earlier, to more complex, rich and subtle literature than blockbusters, then it would be an entirely unsatisfactory experience to go back to a piece of trex like The Da Vinci Code, and one would then recognise it as objectively a bad book. Indeed, one of the strongest arguments for saying that the majority of those who have read the Da Vinci Code do not have much wider reading tastes, is the fact that I can't believe anyone who did enjoy higher-end literature would actually be able to get through the thing without crying.

EDIT: Sorry Motokid, your post came in while I was entering mine above. Well, one good reason why you would definitely have made the wrong decision about your clapped-out motorcycle by ignoring expert opinion, is that it wouldn't last long. Which kind of works for the extended discussion too.

Of course you might say that you didn't buy for its traditionally-accepted motorbikey qualities. Fair enough. The Da Vinci Code has qualities outside that of other books. Maybe people are buying it for these other uses. I gather, for instance, that it's soft, strong and very very absorbent.
 
Yeah, funny. There was absolutely no need whatsoever to single one person out.

None.

A person who has nothing to do with the discussion, also. It's pretty low, when you think about it.

Cheers
 
I like your post, Shade. I think it is a well thought out expression of ideas. What has upset me most about this thread so far is the reactionary nature of people's viewpoints to what has been, thus far, an expression of taste.

The fact is that not everyone is equally interested in reading widely. One may assume that many TBF members are interested in receiving suggestions and so forth, but the fact is that not everyone is going to go to go to the trouble to read so much. They read purely for enjoyment and are content with their selection. If I were reading a review, I would surely consider the person's experience in weighing up their opinion. While I think that everyone's opinion is equally *valid*, I do not necessarily place as much weight on what one person says.

For example if novella writes about a particular book and states that it is beautifully written, I will place a lot of weight on that because I have read her writing and really enjoy it. She clearly knows a lot about literary expression and from what I have read of her posts is what I would consider 'well read'. On the other hand, if I do not know the person at all I will automatically be circumspect about their opinion. They have every right to express it and I will treat it as valid, but until I know what experiences they bring to the book, I will not know how to weight their opinion.

Shade said:
Second, I believe that people who have read widely have the understanding (by reading a wide range of books) to give their opinions more authority, and deserving of more time, consideration and respect, than the opinion of those who have not. Which is why I dispute that all opinions are equally valid.
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This sums it up fairly well, although I don't like the wording of the last sentence. Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but I think everyone deserves a valid consideration of their viewpoint. Whether you choose to take their viewpoint into account when making your own decisions is an entirely different, personal choice.

As to your third point, about whether one can go backwards along the stepping stones, it is an interesting question. Personally, I enjoy reading something rather vapid on the odd occasion. I find it relaxing. Hence the reason I enjoy the Harry Potter books; they have a fun story. I agree that it can be frustrating to see someone writing about literary weight when they only have limited experience, but ultimately those who have the experience see that review for what it is. Is it better to malign the opinions of the limited reader? Or to offer some constructive advice on other books they may enjoy, and the reasons why you feel they may be better written? Help to bring those people forward along the stepping stones by guiding them to solid rocks, rather than leaving them to cling to their present stone for grim death, or worse, letting them slip off and fall into the pond.
 
OK Kookamoor, I agree that "valid" may not be the mot juste here, since it implies that if an opinion is not valid then it's ... invalid. I should perhaps have said something like "not all opinions are worthy of the same consideration and should not necessarily carry the same weight."

And I hope that, if you search back through my posts on other threads, you'll find that they are - by and large! - of the encouraging people to read better stuff type, and not castigating them for reading otherwise.
 
Shade said:
And I hope that, if you search back through my posts on other threads, you'll find that they are - by and large! - of the encouraging people to read better stuff type, and not castigating them for reading otherwise.
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I think your opinion has become a lot clearer as this thread has progressed. I thank you for clarifying and bearing with me.

Now! Here is your operchancity to show your abilities in helping Dan Brown readers. Robotman in this thread is asking for suggestions for an 'easy read', saying he likes Dan Brown because its a book which is a page turner and has shorter chapters. Here is an ideal reader who can be nudged a little along your stepping stones. I made 2 fantasy suggestions, what do you recommend?
 
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