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national identity

Yep, all those things are nice, but what has Canada done to really seperate itself from USA? What stance has it made or cause has it shouldered the brunt of that makes it stand out in the crowd above and beyond other countries in the world?

Again, I'm not being arguementative or sarcastic. I'm asking cause I just don't know. There is no Canadian History class taught in our schools.

Nobody has ever declared war on Canada have they? Has Canada ever declared war on another nation or people? Even in WW2 did they outright declare war on Germany and/or Japan or where they merely "helping" the cause of America who had war thrust upon them?

Has Canada ever come to the aid of, or tried to liberate an oppressed group of people in another land when no other country has been willing to take up that kind of action? September 11th is a good example, but then what choice did they have? Turn the planes away to crash into the ocean? Most countries come to the aid of other countries in times of horrific circumstances.

Maybe what makes Canada such a unique place is there ability to keep to themselves and let others do as they please? Neutrallity is not a bad thing.
 
Ermm Moto.. Is war the only way a country can contribute with anything or the only way it is able to be measured? Sounds a bit depressing.
The fact that there is no Canadian history class in your schools doesn't really say anything.. In Denmark we don't have German history, English history, Swedish history, Norwegian history or anything like that.
 
Motokid said:
Yep, all those things are nice, but what has Canada done to really seperate itself from USA? What stance has it made or cause has it shouldered the brunt of that makes it stand out in the crowd above and beyond other countries in the world?

Again, I'm not being arguementative or sarcastic. I'm asking cause I just don't know. There is no Canadian History class taught in our schools.

Nobody has ever declared war on Canada have they? Has Canada ever declared war on another nation or people? Even in WW2 did they outright declare war on Germany and/or Japan or where they merely "helping" the cause of America who had war thrust upon them?

Has Canada ever come to the aid of, or tried to liberate an oppressed group of people in another land when no other country has been willing to take up that kind of action? September 11th is a good example, but then what choice did they have? Turn the planes away to crash into the ocean? Most countries come to the aid of other countries in times of horrific circumstances.

Maybe what makes Canada such a unique place is there ability to keep to themselves and let others do as they please? Neutrallity is not a bad thing.
Click to expand...

I think you're being rude, Moto. Look at Canada's role in WWI. They sacrificed a lot of men and were there longer than the US, with more commitment as a nation.

And I agree that it is just plain silly to measure the stature of a nation based on their aggression and belligerence. No, Canada was never an imperialist power. They were part of the British Empire, so on the other end of that stick. If they choose, as a nation, to take a (very strong and significant) peacekeeping role, on their own and through the UN, I for one admire that.

The US never steps into a conflict unless they have something to gain. Half the time, they fuel the fires in order to advance their own interests. If everyone followed that model, what a mess the world would be.

Couldn't the same be said for America's role in Europe in WWII, that they were merely "helping" in a war that England and France had thrust upon them? So Canada was there too, in force. I don't see the distinction.

And your question, what has Canada done to separate itself from the USA? is strange. It is a separate country, with separate policies and allegiances. It has a gov't, it has its own economy with trade regs and barriers between it and the US. In what way is it not separate, except geographically?
 
No no no. I'm really not trying to be rude or disrespectful. read what Jenn and Ell are talking about. Specifically jenn stating:

"ell,
i agree. i think it is interesting that canadians are always looking for that thing that is going to set them apart. something that you can point to and go this is a canadian trait. i feel that most of this anxiety comes into play when we are trying to demonstrate how we are not american instead of how we are canadian. as i think about this more and more, i realize this seems to be something that gets played out in the media and is probably not the concern of most canadians. perhaps our media outlets have inferiority complexes."

Of coarse war is not the only/best way to judge a people or country, but it does go a long way towards a countries image and a way that sets it apart. And regardless of it's internal motives for going to war America has always gone the extra mile to ensure that people are not oppressed by a savage dictator or government.
 
novella said:
The US never steps into a conflict unless they have something to gain. Half the time, they fuel the fires in order to advance their own interests. If everyone followed that model, what a mess the world would be.
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The US steps into things out of belief that they're doing the right thing for the right reason. Unlike some countries that will support regimes guilty of supporting terriorism and atrocities againt their own people in order to line their own pockerts. Moral cowards all ...

Yeah, God help us all if the whole world was like that.
 
Robert said:
The US steps into things out of belief that they're doing the right thing for the right reason. Unlike some countries that will support regimes guilty of supporting terriorism and atrocities againt their own people in order to line their own pockerts. Moral cowards all ...

Yeah, God help us all if the whole world was like that.
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Moto, this in response to you as well.

Here are a few of the dictators who had full US support during all or part of their tenure:

Saddam Hussein (early 80s, yes we armed him)
Marcos-Philippines
Noriega--Panama (pre Olly North)
Pinochet--Chile
Batista --Cuba
Arbenz--Guatemala
Somoza--Nicaragua

These are just a few. I haven't even gotten into Africa or the Middle East yet. These are not ancient history. Many of the people they imprisoned and tortured are still alive.

I think a little hard history might come in handy here. Blind belief in the good nature of your country isn't that wise.

Oh yeah, don't forget Uncle Joe Stalin!
 
No blind belief here, novella. I'm aware of all of those and more. Some were wrong for sure. But most of those, it was the lesser of evils & national security.
 
Robert said:
No blind belief here, novella. I'm aware of all of those and more. Some were wrong for sure. But most of those, it was the lesser of evils & national security.
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What was the "right thing for the right reason" in supporting Saddam? Just curious. How did that improve our national security? Would we have found it 'necessary' to invade Iraq if we had not armed him?

I think each of these cases created its own problems that came back and smacked the US in the head. Marcos? Noriega? These were evil, cruel dictators who bankrupted their countries and tortured those who opposed them. In what way was active US support of them a good choice?

I think you are whitewashing this with some general notion of the US being righteous, when in fact the US's motivations are driven by complex economic and geopolitical strategies with direct benefit of power and wealth to the US. US foreign policy has never been driven by morality and philanthropy.
 
look, I'm backing out of this one...

I was just asking, on a global stage, in the world theater, where has Canada positioned itself to create it's own identity? if it's one of neutrality that's fine. I got no problem with that. I was asking for information purposes. To gain information I don't have.

I know America is not perfect, and has done many things that are not worthy of boasting about, and a few things that are worthy of shame.

jenn and Ell were discussing the "Canadian feeling" and I was asking questions for my enlightenment, not as a "chest beating, nobody's cooler than America, prove yourself to be better than us" type of braggard.

I'm sorry if it came across otherwise. Really. Not my intention.
 
Motokid said:
where has Canada positioned itself to create it's own identity? if it's one of neutrality that's fine. I got no problem with that. .
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Canada is not Switzerland. They fought against Hitler and they fought alongside the allies in WWI, to great sacrifice. There was nothing neutral about that.

They have had a major presence in the UN and their own peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Sudan, and now Iraq. That, believe it or not, is not neutrality. Those forces are at risk. They are actively protecting people's lives. It's not a cakewalk out there.

I sense that you object to Canada not sending invading forces into Iraq. That's their choice in one instance, and I happen to think they made the right one. It doesn't mean they are a neutral country.
 
"I sense that you object to Canada not sending invading forces into Iraq. That's their choice in one instance, and I happen to think they made the right one. It doesn't mean they are a neutral country."

Actually, you should sense complete ignorance. I have no idea what Canada has done in any part of the world. That's not really publicized here. That's why I ask.

I blame no country for staying out of Iraq.

I know the world is not a cakewalk.

I also don't doubt that the American press, and history books have purposefully downplayed other nations involvement in world conflicts to make America look better in the eyes of its citizens.
 
Hey, truce. I'm neutral.

Actually I'm not, but you know what I mean. This nice little nationalistic thread has devolved into agitato discourse.

Let's get this baby back on course.

Here are some national-identity condiments:

England=Marmite
France=Dijon mustard
Italy=olive oil
Czech Republic=sour cream
Germany=apple sauce?
Hungary=paprika sauce
US=ketchup. Bloody, invasive tasteless ketchup, oops . .
Mexico=salsa
India=chutney. Many different fantastic chutneys.
Indonesia=dried shrimp paste

That's much better.
 
WOW my thread got hot.
i guess i should now answer my own question of what defines me as a canadian. certainly not canada's involvement or lack there of in wars or political coups etc. and while i am proud to be associated by nationality to any great canadian ambassadors, it certainly does not affect my day to day perception of myself.
so some sweeping generalizations of the canadian people; as a canadian i have an interest in other cultures, they are the colour and texture of the people of canada. i can speak relatively well in both official languages. i am proud that our comedians can not only get close enough to our prime minister, but often take over his office and have taken him to harvey's for a burger. while we may come off as too p.c, we are quick to laugh at ourselves. there is competition with the u.s, as one would have with an older more assertive sybling, we are always listing our celebs as if offering up our resume and asking permission to play on the play ground. i think we offend easily and so might come off a bit prissy, but if you came to our house we would invite you in, offer you a cup of coffee and insist you stay to dinner. most of us are fiercely proud to be canadians, but feel arrogant if we shout too loud. we are modest. we do love beer, and hockey and toques. we have a fondness for the potato and maple syrup. canada is united in it's general dislike of toronto and torontonians are united in not caring. and my god, we love a laugh.
 
One of my Canadian friends remarked that she was very proud of her government for doing "the right thing" (her words) in regard to same-sex civil rights. She was very proud that her government put human rights ahead of discrimination, in her view. I imagine that's the pride my parents may have felt when schools were desegregated.
That sort of dignified pride is lacking where I live. Sure, 9/11 brought out a love of our country and what our flag stands for, but I haven't come across anyone who is proud of our government for doing the right thing (within the last 5-10 years let's say) in the name of basic people's rights. Maybe these things aren't being publicized in favor or more 'sensational' news, and if they were, we'd be proud of our leaders more (I'm talking all areas of gov't, from local to Congress & the White House, regardless of political affiliation).
Perhaps the Canadian way of government and representation is a bit different, but it seems there is more pride there and I admire that a great deal.
 
jenngorham said:
canada is united in it's general dislike of toronto and torontonians are united in not caring.
Click to expand...

Hee hee!!

Indeed! Particularly on the eastern side of upper Canada.

I totally agree with you Jenn. I'm not Canadian, as I've said before, but I've been here long enough to relate in many ways. You're right, there *is* a pride that Canadians have in being who they are and where they're from. Canadians seem to get a real kick out of being perceived as an underdog by the US, and then laughing behind their backs when they do silly things. Canada has a more liberal outlook on things (Wolhay - do not even go there!) than it's brother to the south, in terms of politics, health care and diversity (be it cultural, religious or sexual). There's also more of an environmental culture north of the border, although David Suzuki and Greenpeace (both originating in Canada) can be a little extreme in some ways, particularly the latter. And finally, Canadians enjoy a good piss-take of themselves. Their military 'might' in particular is the object of a great deal of hilarity at times!

There's a certain similarity between Australia and Canada, although in recent years that seems to be becoming less and less the case. Australia was to New Zealand what the US was to Canada. Now it's like Australia wants to be adopted as America's little brother, while Canada and NZ are quite content to be themselves and carry on doing what makes them happy - I find the latter very admirable. I don't want to get too much into the politics, but Australia at the moment seems very concerned about being a lacky to the States rather than looking after it's own interests. Let's not even discuss Iraq.

Having said that, Australians are proud of their own country in different ways. While we regard our own national anthem in general derision, there's a pride in the fact that our second-most popular national tune is about a sheep thief. And if you want to see national pride just attend a sporting event, which is where we let our pride out. Whether it's swimming, cricket, yachting or speed skating, we cheer on anyone wearing the green and gold. And there's no greater feeling than being the underdog and getting up on your opponent. There's also an environmental concience about Australia as well as a love of the outdoors; people go into the country or the bush to get away. And we love to travel - anywhere and everywhere. We embrace multiculturalism, although we've still got a ways to go with our own indigenous people, but we're generally a friendly nation. And when one of our own hooks up with someone famous, well don't we all like to crow about it!

Anyway, that disjointed drivle is my two cents!
 
Torontonians think they're the centre of the universe (the Canadian one, at least).

I lived and worked in TO for five years and Torontonians would always make derogatory comments about BC residents (aka Lotus Land) e.g. "they're so laid back they're asleep", or "everyone plays golf in the afternoon, no wonder nothing gets done". They have similar comments about the rest of Canada, so it's a hate-hate thing. ;)
 
i think the rest of canada's dislike for toronto is our most unifying factor. lol

kookamoor i really like what you said about australia.this is really what i was looking for from the other nationalities. i'm not so interested in where you feel your country lies in the global scheme of things, but what you personally feel about yourself as a member of that nation.
 
jenngorham said:
i think the rest of canada's dislike for toronto is our most unifying factor. lol

kookamoor i really like what you said about australia.this is really what i was looking for from the other nationalities. i'm not so interested in where you feel your country lies in the global scheme of things, but what you personally feel about yourself as a member of that nation.
Click to expand...

Cool - glad it was along the lines of what you were looking for. But don't you also think that the way *you* see your nation in the global context also has something to do with how you feel about your nation? I mean, I see that Australia has a rising role in the global context, but I think that Australians are hesitant about this role and see it as 'lacky-ism' to the US. Someone from Europe might not even acknowledge that Australia has changed at all in the grand global scheme.
 
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