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nietzsche

watercrystal said:
separation from others leads to distant from others, to detachement, to competition, to conflict, to violence even, well, maybe not necessarily.
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So if separation leads to such dangerous results, what would you suggest? I mean, separation is absolutely necessary; without it, people would be totally addicted to each other and unable to live, decide, think on their own.
 
bobbyburns said:
idun, if I follow moral rules I have separated myself from my environment.
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I don't exactly know what do you mean by environment, but if your family, friens, all peolpe around also follow the same moral rules, how can you be separated from them by living according to the same values?
so the morals just create more and more friction because they are always planning ahead, they keep me from dealing with my problems immediately. I can never observe the present moment clearly, so the conflict never goes away.
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Planning ahead doesn't mean forgetting about present problems. It influences how you deal with them - because you have in mind the future, desired stage to which you plan to get to, but you need to resolve your problems to be able to develop, to go on with your life. You can't to get stuck and eternally deliberate on difficulties in your life. What I try to say is that your resolving of a present problem must match your more general plan. Methods are choosen according to the aim.

One more thing - I think you misinterpret a bit Christian religion. It encourages people to concentrate on a present moment - in a way I wrote above. It teaches you should not say: "From now on I'll be perfect till the end of my life" but "Today I'll clean the dishes for my mum and I'll pray on rotary."
 
I think you need morals. You can't live without some set of morals and neither can society. but make up your own mind. don't follow someone else's rules blindly. do what you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. intelligence is nothing without the moderation of wisdom which only comes with experience and time.

forget what Christianity is now. only what Jesus taught is valid. even Nietzsche respected Jesus. I went through an antireligious phase before and after reading Nietzsche. now I think there's a lot of artistic and aesthetic value in religion/spirituality. life without meaning is not worth living and religion gives some people meaning. just don't follow the herd.
 
it feels like we're getting off track, so I'm gonna take a step back and just forget about morals for now. I'm not here to make any kind of propaganda for any belief. I simply want to observe what I am. I've read books on science, psychology and religion, but I don't want to see life through a screen. I want to give my real attention so that I don't create more resistance. it's only that understanding and honesty which can release me from this violent state of mind. to know that I am dishonest is the beginning of wisdom. if I know that I'm a liar, and it is a fact which I recognize, then the struggle is over. there is no conflict, no reason to lie anymore. but if I try to justify why I am lying, to make it right, I will resist anyone who tells me it's wrong. that resistance leads to violence, then I'm back to where I started. but with honesty, the change just happens. the act of observing is like a flame, and with its capacity for awareness, the violence, the feeling of hurt, the hate, all that, is burnt away.
 
bobbyburns said:
it feels like we're getting off track, so I'm gonna take a step back and just forget about morals for now.
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That's a very wise decision, bobby! We were unevitably moving into a forbidden area!
it's only that understanding and honesty which can release me from this violent state of mind. to know that I am dishonest is the beginning of wisdom. if I know that I'm a liar, and it is a fact which I recognize, then the struggle is over. there is no conflict, no reason to lie anymore. but if I try to justify why I am lying, to make it right, I will resist anyone who tells me it's wrong. that resistance leads to violence, then I'm back to where I started. but with honesty, the change just happens. the act of observing is like a flame, and with its capacity for awareness, the violence, the feeling of hurt, the hate, all that, is burnt away.
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If I understand you rightly, is it something like in Frank Herbert's Dune? I mean The Litany Against Fear? They also proposed an insight as a way to get rid of unwanted feelings.
 
He misquoted me. I kept pulling him up on it, but then he went and died and there was nothing I could do about it.
 
Idun said:
If I understand you rightly, is it something like in Frank Herbert's Dune? I mean The Litany Against Fear? They also proposed an insight as a way to get rid of unwanted feelings.
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I always thought the bene-gesserit litany in the book was kind of misunderstood though. first it says, "I must not fear; fear is the mind-killer", and then it says, "I will permit it to pass over me and through me," which shows something entirely different. the first one has too much ambition, as if repeating that stupid mantra will eventually make fear go away. but then the second one makes perfect sense. when I see fear for what it is, which is not the same as seeing the object of fear, I can see there is suddenly nothing to fear ... not even fear itself. paul muad'dib understood it.
 
bobbyburns said:
the second one makes perfect sense. when I see fear for what it is, which is not the same as seeing the object of fear, I can see there is suddenly nothing to fear ... not even fear itself.
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I don't know...I think taht realising where the real cause of fear is is an important step on a way to getting rid of it, but a first step only. Awareness is not a cure, it only gives you a sign on what exactly you need one.

Besides, Litany has right in "liking" fear, because it may be very helpful. Why to get rid of it completely? It would be a great loss.
 
of course she has a right. it doesn't make any difference to me what anyone else does. I could be deceiving all of you. how would you know?

would it really matter?
 
in case anyone misreads that, what I really mean is, if fear isn't a problem for you then don't change it. like I said, always start where you're at. I'd rather you didn't agree with me and were honest with yourself. I'm not your guru.
 
Nietzsche, the comic genius:

"Books for everybody are always malodorous books: the smell of petty people clings to them."

:D
 
A WHOLE THREAD FOR NIETZSCHE. i was about to make one, i love nietzsche. i'll have fun going through this whole thing exstensively tomorrow :D
 
bobbyburns said:
in case anyone misreads that, what I really mean is, if fear isn't a problem for you then don't change it. like I said, always start where you're at. I'd rather you didn't agree with me and were honest with yourself. I'm not your guru.
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You sure ain't.

Freidrik can be judged crazy because he spent a lot of time in the nut house.

As for "…don't want to have any violence in me, any hate, jealousy, fear or anxiety," to hell with that. You'll have ample absence of those things when you're dead.

Some of us want to be whole, alive human beings, and feel it all.

If we have a dangerously powerful car, or motorbike or something, do we drain it of fuel to make it safe? No, far better to develop some skills, and learn to control it. Much more fun.
 
nostalgia

Geezus, the reappreance of the thread brought back some nostalgic memory, because it was my first try to talk openly about my thoughts.

Still and truly, my thanks for BobbyBurns's friendliness and encouragement.
 
Sun-SSS said:
You sure ain't.

Freidrik can be judged crazy because he spent a lot of time in the nut house.

As for "…don't want to have any violence in me, any hate, jealousy, fear or anxiety," to hell with that. You'll have ample absence of those things when you're dead.

Some of us want to be whole, alive human beings, and feel it all.

If we have a dangerously powerful car, or motorbike or something, do we drain it of fuel to make it safe? No, far better to develop some skills, and learn to control it. Much more fun.
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I'm sure Bobby will get to this, but I can't help it in the meantime.

First, I'm not sure when spending time in a so called "nut house" was the indicator of ones sanity. Does it then follow that if you live mundanely in society you are not insane? Seems too much like a gross generalization.

Second, as far as not having emotions, I think you misinterpret the point. It's not banishing these emotions, but not becoming attached to them. Indeed you will probably always feel certain responses, but the idea wasn't to deny them, but quite the reverse, accept them. Let them pss through you without grabbing hold of them. In that regard, I feel you have misinterpreted one thing for another.

As far as "you'll have enough of that when you're dead", I"m not sure what this comparison was supposed to warrant. You'll have an absence of pain when you're dead, it doesn't follow that we should go out and become massochists because of it.

Finally, I'm not sure your idea of what makes a human "whole" holds universal applicability. I'm not sure that the encapsulation of every emotion really is what completes us. Neither do I feel that "fun" is objective enough to warrant judging the wholeness of a human life by its subjective measure.

Anyway, there's my piece....I'm sure Bobby will get to it before long, just my thoughts in response.

G'day all!

~True
 
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