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Prohibitive Law vs Protective Justice

nyse said:
Law only protects its own sanctity. Making a threat is breaking the law against uttering threats--it is not protecting a person
But wasn't the purpose of making this law to protect citizens? Laws are made to protect people. How one is judged after breaking such law should be based on the reason for the law itself.

nomadic myth said:
Or maybe, I'd like to, but I don't, because some guys in flashing cars and blue clothes will lock me up for a long time because of some law.
Thank you for this response. This was exactly what I was trying to point out in the previous thread. Many people don't break the law only because there are consequences for doing so. I could never take another human being's life without extreme circumstances (my example was not one of them), but not everyone feels that way. Some people don't see the value of another person's life. The only reason they do not take another life is that they don't wish to pay the consequences for doing so. It has nothing to do with their conscience but their fear of jail/dealth penalty.

nyse, here's a different example for you. Perhaps this one will be easier.
My neighbor and I get in an argument. He hits me in the face because I insulted him. In return I break his nose and 2 ribs. What happens to both of us?
 
But wasn't the purpose of making this law to protect citizens? Laws are made to protect people. How one is judged after breaking such law should be based on the reason for the law itself.


Thank you for this response. This was exactly what I was trying to point out in the previous thread. Many people don't break the law only because there are consequences for doing so. I could never take another human being's life without extreme circumstances (my example was not one of them), but not everyone feels that way. Some people don't see the value of another person's life. The only reason they do not take another life is that they don't wish to pay the consequences for doing so. It has nothing to do with their conscience but their fear of jail/dealth penalty.

nyse, here's a different example for you. Perhaps this one will be easier.
My neighbor and I get in an argument. He hits me in the face because I insulted him. In return I break his nose and 2 ribs. What happens to both of us?

this would make a good thread, a CRIME AND PUNISHMENT THREAD! where people post crimes and post punishments!

let me try. hmmm...how will I punish you and your neighbor?

... Well, I know that your neighbor asks you to Karaoke, and that weakens his disposition in my judgement. Plus, he hit a woman; and moreover, a woman with glasses since you are a beer wench!
...on the other hand, as a beer wench you serve beer, but in this case you have chosen to serve justice by taking the law into your own hands and making a fist! well said! well in this case I think justice has been served already.
 
Let me correct some of your assumptions.
1. I do not wear glasses except when driving at night. I have very light blue eyes and they are not tolerant to light, so I get a glare from headlights and lighted signs. I do, however, always have sunglasses on when I'm outside on a sunny day.
2. I am not a BeerWench by profession. I got the nickname a long time ago from my husband. See this thread for the whole story... http://www.bookandreader.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6913&page=15
3. The story was hypothetical, though based on something similar that happened to me when I was in high school. No charges were filed regarding the incident. I think the guy didn't wish to admit in a court of law that a little girl like me kicked his ass.

Sidenote: The real incident on which I based this hypothetical situation, opened my eyes to what the phrase "seeing red" really means. When the guy hit me, I don't remember punching him in the nose or kicking him when he went down. It was pure reactionary impulse.
 
I'm really not a violent person as long as my person is not assaulted. I have no control over what happens then.
 
Let me correct some of your assumptions.
1. I do not wear glasses except when driving at night. I have very light blue eyes and they are not tolerant to light, so I get a glare from headlights and lighted signs. I do, however, always have sunglasses on when I'm outside on a sunny day.
2. I am not a BeerWench by profession. I got the nickname a long time ago from my husband. See this thread for the whole story... http://www.bookandreader.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6913&page=15
3. The story was hypothetical, though based on something similar that happened to me when I was in high school. No charges were filed regarding the incident. I think the guy didn't wish to admit in a court of law that a little girl like me kicked his ass.

Sidenote: The real incident on which I based this hypothetical situation, opened my eyes to what the phrase "seeing red" really means. When the guy hit me, I don't remember punching him in the nose or kicking him when he went down. It was pure reactionary impulse.

hey, I'm not the one on trial here! order in the court! order in the court!
 
You're making it seem like the law is an evil entity, that is not controlled by humans.
Technically, it IS an entity. or rather a figmernt of society's imagination, and that's what causes the problem with it. Since the word 'law' seems to blinker you, let's exchange it with another word. "Comitting the act of murder is a crime against the banana." "Breaking the banana will result in punishment." Now, which is really being protected--you or the banana?
 
nyse said:
"Comitting the act of murder is a crime against the banana." "Breaking the banana will result in punishment." Now, which is really being protected--you or the banana?
If someone gets murdered no one protected them. However, the banana made a consequence for committing the act which may deter someone from committing murder in the first place.
 
Here, I'll give you a "crime" on which to base your statement.
I find my husband in bed with another woman. In a fit of rage, I kill them both. Proceed.
Before we examine society’s response, let’s look at the incident as it is happening. The cuckolded wife has caught the infidelity in progress and grabbed a handgun. ‘BANG’ the cheating spouse takes one in the heart. Now, she swings the muzzle to the naked lady ensconced in her marital bed. Does she shoot to kill?
Prohibitive Law (P.L.) – The jilted woman has killed once. It was a crime of passion but according to P.L., she has committed a murder. There is really nothing to prevent the second death.
Protective Justice (P.J.) – The gun is pointed at the Jezebel, but the conscience has the opportunity to work. It’s not a second law she is about to break, but an additional life to take and she doesn’t even know the other woman. Was she responsible for leading the wayward husband away or just another victim of the now dead cad? Because of her inner voice of goodness or from the high tension of the moment, (we’ll let a judge be the judge) the next shot hits a shoulder.

The police arrive to apprehend the suspect. She seemingly has killed and wounded: under either P.L. or P.J. she would be taken into custody. The police begin to investigate.
P.L. – The inspectors would be trying to gather enough evidence to convict. Their prime concern is that a law has been broken and their job is aligned with the prosecutor. A forensic team is assembled to use all the nifty CSI toys.
P.J. – The scope of the investigation is much wider. They will seek to find why the wife killed, how she came to surprise the couple, whether either spouse had a history of cheating, etc. In other words, they are doing investigation for both the defense and the prosecution. They are utterly non-partisan because they are serving the people and that includes the person currently in their custody.

The media is informed that a shooting and a death occurred. The victim’s name is released after next-of-kin notification.
P.L. - Someone in the police department leaks the perpetrator’s name or they march her in handcuffs in front of reporters. The cops in the P.L. system want the public seeing them in action and they like the headlines. Even if a court finds not guilty, a smear has been indelibly put onto the accused person.
P.J. - A person’s dealings with the police and with justice are not a public entertainment. The killer’s right to confidentiality are protected: her family and friends are not hounded for television interviews.

The trial begins before a judge.
P.L. The P.L. system has only a yes or no answer to whether the murder law was broken. The defendant hires the best lawyer she can afford and the ‘adversarial’ orating begins. The verdict will be a yes/no answer with strict punishment on one side and Scott-free on the other. Expensive legal council will impress the judge and jury into a not guilty verdict, based on some technicality—regardless of the fact that she really did kill her husband and wound his paramour. The good barrister might use battered wife syndrome or self-defense as a ploy to cutting a deal for a reduced sentence.
P.J. – P.J. wants to do the best for society and all persons involved. The state provides the defense at no cost and so all people are equal in front of justice. Since the verdict won’t be a full yes or absolute no, some measures will always be applied. The defense argues for leniency and the prosecution begs for harsher with the judge as the deciding vote.

The verdict comes in.
P.L. – a) The accused is found guilty of breaking the law and is sentenced to jail time. But wait! If she still has some money in her bank account, her lawyers can appeal. If she’s now broke, she must serve her time.
P.L. – b) The judge/jury finds ‘not-guilty’ on a technicality, because the arresting police officer accidentally spelled her middle name wrong on the charge sheet. The wife dances for joy and promptly writes a bestseller entitled ‘How I got away with murder’. Even if she confesses in the book, she can’t be retried for the same offence.
P.J. – a) The court deems that she is a threat to future husbands or boyfriends. She is incarcerated until she has fully participated in anger/jealousy management counseling. A parole board will decide when they deem her safe to conditionally release. If she refuses treatment or is not recalcitrant, she may never be released: (P.J. measures are not set punishments).
P.J. – b) the meticulous and unbiased investigation the police did turned up some details on the murdered husband. It seems that he set up the event to trick his wife into asking for a divorce. The court arrives at a consensus that the widow is not a sufficient risk and she doesn’t receive jail time. Instead, the court orders some relationship education and she’s barred from owning firearms. (The book deal is forbidden because the full disclosure would do harm to the victim’s family/reputation and the surviving witness.)

Remember the wounded mistress on the mattress? In P.J. – a), she testified that the killer had missed her aim. In P.J. – b), she believed the jealous wife shot her in the final venting of her rage. The court doesn’t overlook her participation in the event though. The witness is also assigned some measures to protect society in the future. A course in human relationships wouldn’t hurt her—because the media isn’t broadcasting all the juicy details.
 
If someone gets murdered no one protected them. However, the banana made a consequence for committing the act which may deter someone from committing murder in the first place.
Exactly! but we don't need to prostrate ourselves in slavery to the big banana to install a consequence. Portective justice is able to order harsh measures like jail time, but it uses a protection rationale instead of a punishment one--and it doesn't need bananas to do it.
 
No, for the squirrels.
If you still can't understand the concept then please don't let me keep you from your Flat Earth Society meeting. I'm still hoping that some might comprehend it and that some valuable discussion can ensue.
 
Zing!

Again, your entire suggestion is to change the name of "law", not the law itself. If I can still be jailed or sentenced to death for a wrongful act, then it is no different except in name. As I stated before, you can call a hippopotamus a doorknob if you wish, but it's still a hippo, just with a different name.

I understand that, in your little Utopia, the law would be working for the people, but that will never happen as long as money exists on this planet. Everything comes back to it, one way or another. If I commited a "wrongful act" (or whatever the hell you wanna call it), I would just pay those "investigators" to miss a few clues. I bet I'd pay better than the state!
 
Zing!

Again, your entire suggestion is to change the name of "law", not the law itself. If I can still be jailed or sentenced to death for a wrongful act, then it is no different except in name. As I stated before, you can call a hippopotamus a doorknob if you wish, but it's still a hippo, just with a different name.
Obviously I'm batting zero for two on gaining comprehention and I've wasted more of my time.
I understand that, in your little Utopia, the law would be working for the people, but that will never happen as long as money exists on this planet. Everything comes back to it, one way or another. If I commited a "wrongful act" (or whatever the hell you wanna call it), I would just pay those "investigators" to miss a few clues. I bet I'd pay better than the state!
So you're perfectly willing to blame noney for everything and do nothing to try and better the world?
 
I didn't blame money for anything. If anything, I blame greed. However , the point is that, if you have no set boundaries, those with more money can "bribe" their way to freedom.

nyse said:
What right do they have now? None! They only have a self-granted power to do so and that is backed up with armed might.
I live in this country. In order to have the right to be a citizen of this country, I must abide by its laws. That is part of the deal. Much like, if I go to my parent's house, I cannot drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes inside. That is their rule and, if I wish to have the priviledge to stay in their home, then I must abide by their rules.
 
I didn't blame money for anything. If anything, I blame greed. However , the point is that, if you have no set boundaries, those with more money can "bribe" their way to freedom.
So you're willing keep a system that has corruption built into is and hold it as sancrosanct. I'm not.
I live in this country. In order to have the right to be a citizen of this country, I must abide by its laws. That is part of the deal. Much like, if I go to my parent's house, I cannot drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes inside. That is their rule and, if I wish to have the priviledge to stay in their home, then I must abide by their rules.
Horse manure! I was born with a birthright of freedom. None have the right to make me a blind slave to an obsolete concept.
 
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