Publish or Self-publish?

[WoodYouLike]

There's no correlation between being a MySpace member and reading books your recommend. So what's your point?

The correlation between the two are in the books I recommend, start reading.

 

[GreenKnight]

For me the issue seems to be this. There are many books out there that are not good enough to be published professionally; indeed many authors who may never get good enough to produce a publishable novel. That does not mean that all of these novels are underserving of an audience. Some, indeed many, may be unreadable by all but the writer's closest and most tactful friends. Others may be hugely enjoyable and earn a small private audience in their own right.

If an author has a book they have tried to place professionally, and failed, and if they still believe that it is a book that deserves a readership, then yes, they should self-publish; preferably by POD to avoid the expense.

It's like being in a band. Your band may never get signed, but that doesn't mean you can't sell your own self-produced CDs to whoever will buy them, or play gigs down your local club.

 

[Stewart]

It would be nice is self-published authors made it known that they did indeed self-publish. I don't want to hear about their tat.

 

[WoodYouLike]

It would be nice is self-published authors made it known that they did indeed self-publish. I don't want to hear about their tat.

You might miss out on some gems, but that's your choice then isn't it? I've read wonderful little books with heartfeld poetry this way, thanks to self-publishing.
Be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush my friend

 

[WoodYouLike]

There's no correlation between being a MySpace member and reading books your recommend. So what's your point?

Imagine: here comes everybody

 

[George Oliver]

What is publishing?

It all boils down to marketing and the quality of what you produce. A vast no. of people - myself included - buy almost all of their books on the internet therefore having your book in every store is not essential. What is essential is to have a good product that you - the author - have to spend time marketing to the world. Traditional publishers lose money on at least 9 out of 10 books and often will produce smallish print-runs to minimise their risk, which means few bookshops will have it in stock anyway. If you self-publish and it's 2000 dollars and you can sell, say 2000 books, you WILL make a profit which means you're doing at least as well as the traditional publishers if not much better. What you must be careful with is editing - you MUST get someone to edit your manuscript - preferably more than one person - and my advice is that 57,000 words is quite a short novel, possibly more of a novella. You could wait for years or just say f*** it, I'm going to do it now. The one advantage is that you do not have to fit into a publisher's timescale and wait ten months to get on a shelf. Get your MSS to someone who will be honest with you and who knows books and get a brutal opinion. You need to have that brutality before you can even think of laying your soul bare for the world to see. I agree with what Stewart says on the basis that a publisher or publisher's reader will provide that brutality. But get it from someone else - preferably a published author who isn't going to mince their words - and then you're doing just as well. I think JK Rowling was rejected by loads of people before Bloomsbury took her on. Go, Daniel, go!!!

 

[Mathius]

I found this topic while looking for "lulu" in the search, trying to gauge people's opinions.

I'm not in the industry. Maybe some day I'll try to get a story published, maybe I won't. I love to read, I certainly have my own ideas for how stories should pan out, as well as ideas for my own stories, but whether or not I really have the talent I believe I do, or the initiative to get it done is another story.

It seems to me from reading this thread, that there's quite a bit of contempt for self-publishing, but I'll reserve my own judgment.

I do have a question related to this debate though.

What do you guys think of self publishing as a way to present yourself to a traditional publishing company?

Again, I'm not in the industry. I don't know the proper steps, procedures, etc. that are necessary to get a book across a publisher's desk.

But it seems to me that if I were a publisher, I would have a lot easier time getting through a self published novel, than a type written manuscript someone passed along to me in an envelope.

Would it be completely out of line to go through a company like Lulu and then forward your self-published novel to an agent, or perhaps straight to a publisher?

Mathius

 

[Stewart]

It seems to me from reading this thread, that there's quite a bit of contempt for self-publishing, but I'll reserve my own judgment.

And so there should be. By going the self-promotion route a number of over priced and badly produced efforts are pushed onto the marketplace. That they are not worth the time should be obvious as they have failed to pass through the layers of agents and publishing houses that for us, the consumer, we consider our quality control. So much shit gets thrown their way that we never see the most of it. But with electronic self-publishing becoming a viable option for those who believe in their own piece of literary crap we are seeing the most of it now since they don't have marketing nous and thus think spamming web forums and faking reviews are the way to make sales.

I don't buy the arguments for self-publishing (other than for small cookbooks and other circle of friend stuff) whereby people mention that James Joyce or Viriginia Woolf self-published. The problem with this is that in their days you had to be really committed to the writing process as it was a lot harder to produce anything since typewriters didn't allow for editing and the other alternative, pen and paper, wasn't that much more helpful. Now, with word processors, every numpty with an idea can tap something out (probably something from one of those monkeys in a room that, unbothered for 20 years will eventually end up replicating Shakespeare) and then upload their useless scribblings to Lulu and call themselves an author.

What do you guys think of self publishing as a way to present yourself to a traditional publishing company?

The wrong way. A traditional publishing company will most likely looking for an agent to forward your work, not you. An agent, at first, will only be interested in the first three chapters of your work (with perhaps a summary of where the novel goes next) and will request further chapters if interested. Is it worth self-publishing three chapters in book form? Don't answer that. The traditional publisher also sets out guidelines for a reason. They want a manuscript, plain and simple. About twenty-five lines per page, double spaced, with relevant margins. This is so the editor can write in the margins, make comments between the lines, etc. Why jeopardise a published novel by not following your potential publisher's wishes?

But it seems to me that if I were a publisher, I would have a lot easier time getting through a self published novel, than a type written manuscript someone passed along to me in an envelope.

Would it be completely out of line to go through a company like Lulu and then forward your self-published novel to an agent, or perhaps straight to a publisher?

You could do it, but the likelihood of them reading it is not worth the bother. All you are effectively doing is throwing your money at Lulu.

 

[GreenKnight]

Stewart, I think broadly you are correct. There is so much trash on Lulu that you could sift forever and not find a readable novel. However, I would not totally dismiss its usefulness, as I for one did find it useful.

I had little difficulty in finding an agent to represent me, but then a year passed with no offers of publication. I gave up on my book and decided that, rather than let it rot in my hard drive, I would publish some copies through Lulu for friends to read. The friends liked it so, encouraged, I sent it out to some proper reviewers. The reviewers liked it too. So I sent the reviews to my agent and said, 'Are these any use?' Three weeks later I had an offer of publication.

Lulu didn't get me published; I did that. But it did help provide the final push through the final barrier. And even if it hadn't, I wouldn't have regretted doing it. It was nice to get copies of my book, to hold the physical object and sell it to people for a 50p profit. Nice to know that a year of writing wasn't wasted. If you've exhausted all other routes, Lulu is preferable to the dustbin. And who knows... maybe it will lead to other things after all. It's a mad enough world.

 

[Motokid]

If man was restricted to always following the rules we'd all still be washing our animal skin clothes on the rocks in creeks and rivers.

The founder of Wendy's fast food restaurants was told there was no way he could compete with McDonalds or Burger King, and was always turned down for business loans. Persistence paid off didn't it?

The idea that there's only one way to success is bullshit.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who snub their noses at singers who audition for American Idol.

"If they had any real talent they could get discovered on thier own...."

There's at least a dozen new recording artists with great contracts that would dispute that claiim now.

There is no "right or wrong" when it comes to publishing.

Never give up on using the traditional route, but don't be scared to seek alternative paths to success.

Michael Dell and Bill Gates would probably say the same thing.

Self-publishing can indeed lead to getting published.

 

[France]

I I think JK Rowling was rejected by loads of people before Bloomsbury took her on.

Just one, in fact - it's one of the great urban myths along with her being rejected by loads of agents. She was picked up by the second she tried there too. What is true is that Bloomsbury picked Harry Potter up for an advance of £2000 which seems like peanuts but was around the going rate for a previously unpublished author whom no-one had any reason to think would go sratospheric.

 

[beer good]

I'm sure there are plenty of people who snub their noses at singers who audition for American Idol.

"If they had any real talent they could get discovered on thier own...."

There's at least a dozen new recording artists with great contracts that would dispute that claiim now.

True enough, though I wouldn't argue this as a positive point...

 

[France]

But it seems to me that if I were a publisher, I would have a lot easier time getting through a self published novel, than a type written manuscript someone passed along to me in an envelope.

Would it be completely out of line to go through a company like Lulu and then forward your self-published novel to an agent, or perhaps straight to a publisher?

Mathius

Matthius, ask yourself why any publisher would want to pay to publish a book that can already be downloaded off the internet? Your average editor is going to be far more impressed by a clean literate manuscript which is gramatically correct and has been carefully checked over than a self published book which would have to be printed out again into manuscript form if the editor decided to take it on.

 

[Stewart]

I'm sure there are plenty of people who snub their noses at singers who audition for American Idol.

"If they had any real talent they could get discovered on thier own...."

The American Idol model is more in line with that of traditional publishing than self-publishing in that the person whores their voice/manuscript in front of someone with decision making power (judge/agent) and gets accepted or rejected. With self-publishing there is no rejection.

 

[Motokid]

Everything is based on the author's definition of success.

If the self-published author uses that "copy" to continue seeking the traditional path, then the judging and jury aspect is still there. The author just has a cleaner, more presentable representation of the product.

If the self-publisher is simply seeking a book with thier name on the cover then Kinko's can probably help just as much as lulu.com can.

Sometimes having the "real" thing can be very energizing.

I will stick with the "don't give up on traditional, but don't be scared to seek alternative paths" statement I made earlier.

It's worked for more than just me.

 

[Stewart]

I will stick with the "don't give up on traditional, but don't be scared to seek alternative paths" statement I made earlier.

In the kids market, how about you write something like And TeeZee Makes Three? Such books are all the trend these days. Perhaps it could be set at Gaytona.

 

[Mathius]

And so there should be. By going the self-promotion route a number of over priced and badly produced efforts are pushed onto the marketplace. That they are not worth the time should be obvious as they have failed to pass through the layers of agents and publishing houses that for us, the consumer, we consider our quality control. So much shit gets thrown their way that we never see the most of it. But with electronic self-publishing becoming a viable option for those who believe in their own piece of literary crap we are seeing the most of it now since they don't have marketing nous and thus think spamming web forums and faking reviews are the way to make sales.

I don't buy the arguments for self-publishing (other than for small cookbooks and other circle of friend stuff) whereby people mention that James Joyce or Viriginia Woolf self-published. The problem with this is that in their days you had to be really committed to the writing process as it was a lot harder to produce anything since typewriters didn't allow for editing and the other alternative, pen and paper, wasn't that much more helpful. Now, with word processors, every numpty with an idea can tap something out (probably something from one of those monkeys in a room that, unbothered for 20 years will eventually end up replicating Shakespeare) and then upload their useless scribblings to Lulu and call themselves an author.

You strike me as a very close minded individual. I don't want to get in an argument with you, but you are coming off as very pompous in this thread.

I have to ask, if these people are selling their books on lulu, and I will be the first to admit I don't know how many are successful in doing it, then who are you to say that their work is crap?

And maybe some people aren't good enough to be published, but they're just content and happy enough to know that they finished their book, they got it published, and if people enjoy it, they have access to it.

Not everyone is in it for the money. And I certainly don't believe that's how you should keep score (if a score needs to be kept).

The wrong way. A traditional publishing company will most likely looking for an agent to forward your work, not you. An agent, at first, will only be interested in the first three chapters of your work (with perhaps a summary of where the novel goes next) and will request further chapters if interested. Is it worth self-publishing three chapters in book form? Don't answer that. The traditional publisher also sets out guidelines for a reason. They want a manuscript, plain and simple. About twenty-five lines per page, double spaced, with relevant margins. This is so the editor can write in the margins, make comments between the lines, etc. Why jeopardise a published novel by not following your potential publisher's wishes?

As I said, I don't know the mechanics of what is involved in getting a book published. If only three chapters are required as the norm, then I suppose it would certainly not help your case to send a whole book. Obviously you want to give them what they want.

Personally, I can't understand why an agent would take the time to have an editor make comments etc. if they don't believe in the book enough to send it along anyways.

And if they are going to send it along, they can obviously ask you for a double spaced, 25 line, etc. whatever.

Mathius

 

[Mathius]

Matthius, ask yourself why any publisher would want to pay to publish a book that can already be downloaded off the internet? Your average editor is going to be far more impressed by a clean literate manuscript which is gramatically correct and has been carefully checked over than a self published book which would have to be printed out again into manuscript form if the editor decided to take it on.

<shrug> I don't know a whole lot about lulu.com. I've done a little searching on their web page and it says you retain all your copyrights, so I can only assume you have the right to ask lulu to take your book off of their web page.

Having said that, I can think of at least one author that I know of who was published through his parents small publishing company, and didn't have much success, but another person read it and was caught up in it. I don't recall if he was an agent, or what involvement he had in the industry, but the end result was that the book was re-published under a larger firm, and the book became a best seller, and recently a movie.

The title was "Eragon". Perhaps you've heard of it?

All I'm saying is, for me personally, I'd rather sit down with a book in my hands, then have to page through a stapled manuscript.

Again, I don't know the mechanics of getting published, and I was simply asking if anyone thought this approach could be practical or acceptable.

Mathius

 

[GreenKnight]

All I'm saying is, for me personally, I'd rather sit down with a book in my hands, then have to page through a stapled manuscript.

Again, I don't know the mechanics of getting published, and I was simply asking if anyone thought this approach could be practical or acceptable.
Mathius

Mathius, it seems you are asking two different questions, one about self-publishing, another about submissions to agents/publishers.

The second question has only one answer, at least at this point in time. The *only* way to submit to agents and publishers is 12-point, single-sided loose-leaf A4, unbound, pages numbered. Usually first submissions are two or three chapters plus synopsis. Yes, it sounds more logical to send a bound copy, but these people have a way of working - they have special desk setups designed for reading manuscripts this way.

There are a very few agents who accept email submissions at the moment, but most don't.

Still, that is no reason why one shouldn't self-publish, through print-on-demand (e.g. Lulu) for example. I think of Lulu as just a hi-tech printer that can produce saleable or giftable copies.

There is in fact one Lulu author on there (and probably more) who uses Lulu to reprint all his old out-of-print (but traditionally published) novels. In other words, he has proven that he's a saleable, publishable author, and now is using Lulu to keep his old books in circulation, with some success it appears. So it's not just a home of deluded, vain scribblers after all.

 

[SabrinaLove]

A little late on the uptake . . .

Forgive me for putting my 2 cents worth in late! I hope you'll excuse me since I just signed up today.

Publicist side of the issue:

Daniel -if you are afraid of rejection from editors, you will not have the stomach to promote your own book. You will have to promote your own book or pay someone else to do it if you are self-publishing.

As a publicist, I get in the neighborhood of 100 nos in a day per client regardless of their publishing route. If I am lucky, I get 1 yes a day per client for the self published works. Even though it's not my book, it's still hard to swallow every day. Since this will be your baby, you will probably internalize the rejection that is not necessarily aimed at your merit. You are going to be hard pressed to keep at it day after day.

Hope you can use this as food for thought!

-Sabrina