• Welcome to BookAndReader!

    We LOVE books and hope you'll join us in sharing your favorites and experiences along with your love of reading with our community. Registering for our site is free and easy, just CLICK HERE!

    Already a member and forgot your password? Click here.

Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion

Rather more generally, I think that it needs to be remembered the background against which Dawkins wrote The God Delusion.

The last decade or so has seen a rise in religious fundamentalism. Some of it has been obvious, such as Islamic terrorism or the hate and bile of the likes of Westboro Baptist Church (which was, incidentally, founded in 1955, but only rose to public notoriety in 1998 when it picketed the funeral of a victim of a homophobic murder).

But at the same time, religious groups have stepped up campaigns to, say, get creationism taught on an equal footing with science in schools – not just in the US, but in the UK too. That in particular, was a central plank of Dawkins's motivation for writing the book: the attempt to take religion into places that it has not been for many, many years (if ever).

In the UK we've also seen increasing activism by various religious groups, wanting plays closed, wanting books withdrawn from shops, wanting TV executives sacked for showing something that they don't personally like, objecting to cartoons that they don't like.

MPs have started using their position to surreptitiously push their own religious-based agendas.

Unelected, unaccountable leaders of mainstream religious groups have tried to use emotional blackmail against elected members of Parliament to get them to vote a certain way on particular debates – and at other times, they've attempted to blackmail government if they're not exempted from anti-discriminatory legislation.

And this is the UK I'm talking about.

Perhaps because many people within what we could call mainstream religion have fallen away from regular religious observance, there is a vacuum in the central area of what might be termed religious organisation. And fundamentalism is moving into that space.

The mainstream religions are trying to work out what to do. Events such as the Asian tsunami hit belief too – people found themselves finding that disaster incompatible with the idea of a loving god who had created everything. And interviewed on the radio and TV in the quest for answers, mainstream clergy had little to offer.

The Anglican communion is riven between liberals in the west and fundamentalists in the developing world. The current leader of the Catholic church is trying to drag Catholicism back into even more conservative waters (becoming increasingly fundamentalist in an effort to combat the combination of fundamentalism and general disbelief and/or lack of observance). The Pope even risk upsetting Jews, who he claims to respect, by re-introducing ultra-traditional liturgy that has the odd deprecating reference to Judaism, and revoking the excommunication of an ultra-traditional, splitting archbishop – who just happens to be a Holocaust denier too.

Until the last few years, I didn't even really know any other atheists. While my own faith had eventually disintegrated in around 2000, it wasn't as a result of any pressure. After it had gone, I didn't even think about the issue for some time, let alone talk about it with anyone. Now, atheists have started talking and have started engaging with the debate.

Personally, people can believe in fairies at the bottom of their garden, for all I care. But don't attempt to foist those beliefs onto my life. And, as the examples I've briefly outlined above illustrate, that is what some religious groups are trying to do.

Those are the sort of reasons that Dawkins wrote his book – and the sort of reasons that many atheists have, in effect, come out of the closet to pick up the debate. And it explains why this book is important – and why it's upset so many people.
 
Why? It's a discussion of a book a lot of people have read, why shouldn't it be in the book reviews section?

If you mean on what grounds -

It seems to of moved to a discussion of the subject of the book, not the book. Given the subject, it seems to fall into the mature section which is the place to discuss 'politics & religion'.
 
I disagree. I think a lot of the above discussion is based around arguments that Dawkins makes in his book, which means it's definitely a discussion of the book itself. Moreover, especially in non-fiction, I'm not sure it's ever possible to draw a line between discussion of a book and discussion of the subject of the book. By comparison, this month's book of the month deals (though not very well) with revolutionary politics, and consequently there has been discussion (though not as informed and as in-depth as in this thread) of anarchism and conservatism in that thread; should it be moved to the mature section as well? What about the discussion on A Woman In Berlin, which deals with war, rape and ideological conflicts, or the numerous discussions on Salman Rushdie which inevitably (and sadly) contain discussion of his troubles with religious fanatics over the past 20 years, or the discussion on Fahrenheit 451?

I'm honestly not sure why we need a mature section in the first place, but if it means that any serious book discussion has to be moved there the second it contains references to the real world, I say we ought to get rid of it. Especially since moving an interesting, if controversial, discussion to a hidden section has a slight whiff of censorship (not that I'm saying that's what you're advocating, but in practice, it means fewer people will get to read it).
 
I disagree. I think a lot of the above discussion is based around arguments that Dawkins makes in his book, which means it's definitely a discussion of the book itself. Moreover, especially in non-fiction, I'm not sure it's ever possible to draw a line between discussion of a book and discussion of the subject of the book. By comparison, this month's book of the month deals (though not very well) with revolutionary politics, and consequently there has been discussion (though not as informed and as in-depth as in this thread) of anarchism and conservatism in that thread; should it be moved to the mature section as well? What about the discussion on A Woman In Berlin, which deals with war, rape and ideological conflicts, or the numerous discussions on Salman Rushdie which inevitably (and sadly) contain discussion of his troubles with religious fanatics over the past 20 years, or the discussion on Fahrenheit 451?

I'm honestly not sure why we need a mature section in the first place, but if it means that any serious book discussion has to be moved there the second it contains references to the real world, I say we ought to get rid of it. Especially since moving an interesting, if controversial, discussion to a hidden section has a slight whiff of censorship (not that I'm saying that's what you're advocating, but in practice, it means fewer people will get to read it).

Well, I sort of agree with your sentiments, but I regard the mature section more as a sandpit where the inmates can throw thier political/theological poo at each other without inflicting the smell on everyone.

Anyway,Sparky sez no, so I'll drop it.
 
I see we are tackling the God or no God debate again.

Sybarite, I have to agree with the "pick and choose" comment you made.Being brought up Christian I see this all the time,and I don't want to repeat myself from an old thread again and go into detail of how I don't go to church enough or take my kids to communion etc.
Nobody follows God's word exact since the begining,even the priests with their BMW's.

I believe beacause of how it makes me feel,that this is not "it" and a kind of hope. Am I kidding myself? maybe,Are there times of doubt? absolutely,but this my personal thought and feeling.

I respect everyones way of life as long as they don't tell me how to live and not to waste my time believing in a God that does not exist.That is for me to figure out on my own.

As for who is smarter are not smart,the Believer or the Atheist,a human being can learn something from their elders or from people that are younger,from a Christian,from a Buddist (is that spelled right?) etc..you just have to have an open mind.

(Sybarite,the first paragraph was personally to you,the rest is in general.just making myself clear:D)


PipPirrip, nothing has gotten out of control here,I agree with beergood also,it's a book discussion and everyone is trying to make their point.
 
Monkey Catcher,
I see we cross posted.
However, I think my post is not inappropriate in response to yours anyway, so I'll let it stand without further detailed comment. But I do think you go rather far beyond anything I have said when you impugn my supposedly 'flawed premises' and 'flawed conclusions.' Do you really know so much about my faith and my beliefs as to characterize them that way?
I really don't know what your beliefs are (again, this is because Christians are able to pick and choose between numerous doctrines). My point about flawed premises was pointed at Christians at large, rather than you in particular, based on what is generally accepted to be their main shared beliefs, such as that a supernatural being that is all-knowing and all-powerful created the Universe and everything in it, and on a daily basis intercedes in the affairs of those he has created in response to prayers and the like.

Peder I'd like to stress again that I don't think that Christians are incapable of sound reasoning. I don't think that they are any less intelligent than athiests. I just think that they hold the need for physical evidence in a lower regard than do athiests, and are much more willing to accept claims in the absence of evidence (but in the company of 'faith'). This doesn't make them "dumb" or "stupid" - they merely have priorities that are different to me and many other athiests.

I do think that a lot of Christians are unaware of a lot of what the Bible actually preaches. How many Christians know that God ordered and condoned the rape of virgins (Numbers 31:18)? Or that Lot, the infamously righteous man, offered up his daughters for gang-rape (Genesis 19:6-8). I'm sure that every Christian knows the story of Abraham and Isaac, but how many know that God went through with an ordered sacrifice of a child (Judges 11)?
 
The points that beer good made, in his excellent post, are absolutely valid in my opinion. Non-fiction in particular will inevitably cross over into real life.

And Monkeycatcher's post has just raised, again, an issue that Dawkins very particularly raises in The God Delusion – that of the nature of the Judeo-Christian god, based on the Bible itself, and what that means from a moral and ethical perspective.
 
So, I am somewhat surprised by the extreme vehemence of one segment of the atheist population attacking one segment of the Christian population. To me it seems rather out of proportion and lacking in overall perspective.

Honestly if you look at how atheists have been treated and viewed up through the years the only surprise is that its not happened sooner. With the rise of religious fundamentalism threatening to push us back a few hundred years, its time to start fighting back.
 
Back
Top