The pussification of America

[Robert]

Learning how to lose is a very important part of growing up.

It's impossible to remove failure from life, so why try to remove it from the learning experience?

Nor should we try. Failure is a great teacher and this may sound a little old fashioned, but it builds character as well. What are kids going to do when they get out in the real world?

I think the problem comes from the litigious society that the western world is embracing.

You’re not kidding. I can’t tell you how many days my kids were out of school when the weather man used that awful four letter word ‘snow’.


I’ve read article about kids that were not allowed to run and jump at recess because teachers were afraid they might get hurt.

 

[Sergo]

There are many cases in "real life" where you learn more from losing than you do from winning.

Learning how to lose is a very important part of growing up.

It's impossible to remove failure from life, so why try to remove it from the learning experience?

Part of the problem is the stigma that gets associated with failing. How many times is the word "loser" used in an insulting fashion?

If you lose and learn from it, you actually win don't you?

Are we creating over-protected cream-puffs....I think yes.

Wow... How right it is...
I think that I gained lots from my failures... Maybe even much more than from successes... Wow... How many stories to tell my grandchildren...

 

[Wabbit]

Sergo, how would you describe the situation is in Russia on the subject? Do you think that Russia is going down a similar path?

 

[Motokid]

As opposed to bribery, emotional pleading, and wishful thinking?

Absolutely.

So...adults being the judge, jury, executioner, warden, and jailor with kids being the convicts is better than treating kids as smaller human beings with real feelings and real abilities to reason is the best practice?

Reward and punishment is the better teacher than reasoning and equal treatment?

At what age does this type of system work best, and when does allowing a child to be treated like an adult come into play?

 

[Miss Shelf]

So...adults being the judge, jury, executioner, warden, and jailor with kids being the convicts is better than treating kids as smaller human beings with real feelings and real abilities to reason is the best practice?

Reward and punishment is the better teacher than reasoning and equal treatment?

At what age does this type of system work best, and when does allowing a child to be treated like an adult come into play?

I don't think kids should be treated as "little people", the equivalent of adults, until they show they can reason and understand consequences. Too much nowadays people try to be their kids' friend instead of parent. They want the kid to like them, so they don't say NO when they should. And if "Because I said so" was good enough for my mother, it's good enough for me.

 

[Miss Shelf]

Nor should we try. Failure is a great teacher and this may sound a little old fashioned, but it builds character as well. What are kids going to do when they get out in the real world?




You’re not kidding. I can’t tell you how many days my kids were out of school when the weather man used that awful four letter word ‘snow’.


I’ve read article about kids that were not allowed to run and jump at recess because teachers were afraid they might get hurt.

This is all about our lawsuit-happy society. People are covering their asses thoroughly, like Wabbit described-the motorman wanted to be able to say "but I warned them! I warned them we were stopping, and they didn't pay attention to me!". Heck, when I was 12, I broke my foot on the playground at school and never once did we consider suing the school. For what?? the asphalt is too hard??

 

[SFG75]

So...adults being the judge, jury, executioner, warden, and jailor with kids being the convicts is better than treating kids as smaller human beings with real feelings and real abilities to reason is the best practice?

Reward and punishment is the better teacher than reasoning and equal treatment?

At what age does this type of system work best, and when does allowing a child to be treated like an adult come into play?

Interesting debate here betwen Motokid and Leckert. I think we are mixing the notion of discipline with the overall issue of over-protectiveness among parents. It does play a role, don't get me wrong, but Iwouldn't say it is entirely due to this that other problems arise. My wife and I don't spank our children and yes, it takes an awful lot of work to correct them. Undoubtedly there is an easier way to do it, but we don't want to go that route with our kids. Now this is not to say that a person should never spank-that can be just as effective or ineffective as a given parent wants it to be. At the same time, there is a problem with people who take a discipline model way too far and the kids don't mind. Ever see kids who are swatted twenty times a day and it still doesn't faze 'em? I've seen this happen one too many times. Some problems aren't really problems at all. Yes, I could swat my two year old at th store when he whines, but why not let him help me shop and give him something to do? Does that make a wuss out of him? I don't think so, as I've seen my boy play rough and tumble with kids twice his age(he's 2, so that would mean they're 4-big difference I know )

 

[Kenny Shovel]

Interesting debate here betwen Motokid and Leckert.

It is, and they're doing so in an intelligent and articulate manner; which in many ways runs contrary to the spirit of the board.

Anyway, I’ll throw in a quick statement for them, or who ever, to chew over. “The notion that children should not be physically disciplined has only existed in mainstream society within the last 20 or 30 years*. For thousands of years before that, society still managed to function, and children reach adulthood”.

*Social historians, feel free to put me wrong on this.

 

[Wabbit]

It is, and they're doing so in an intelligent and articulate manner; which in many ways runs contrary to the spirit of the board.

Sorry, that's not true

You are new so I really don't blame you for thinking that AT ALL. If I was new then I would probably think just the same way you do! We have had some trouble recently with a few old members returned via proxy serves to get around their ban and cause trouble along with a couple of other old members.

This board is mostly very friendly. Just take a look at all of Motokids threads that he has started where he discusses very contentious issues. No where in them is there any bad feeling, name calling or anything negative at all. There is just well reasoned and calm debate.

I hope now that things seem to be settling down you will find this to be true spirit of things!

 

[SFG75]

Sorry, that's not true

You are new so I really don't blame you for thinking that AT ALL. If I was new then I would probably think just the same way you do! We have had some trouble recently with a few old members returned via proxy serves to get around their ban and cause trouble along with a couple of other old members.

This board is mostly very friendly. Just take a look at all of Motokids threads that he has started where he discusses very contentious issues. No where in them is there any bad feeling, name calling or anything negative at all. There is just well reasoned and calm debate.

I hope now that things seem to be settling down you will find this to be true spirit of things!

Yep, take Wabbit's word for it KS. When you have people sneaking around from server to server to get back on a site, you don't have people who are interested in intelligent debate. Things have improved dramatically here. And yes, Moto's debate threads are great examples of what TBF can truly be.

 

[Kenny Shovel]

Sorry, that's not true

You are new so I really don't blame you for thinking that AT ALL.

Yep, take Wabbit's word for it KS...And yes, Moto's debate threads are great examples of what TBF can truly be.

Oh for the love of God, please don't tell me I have to start using these horrible things everytime I make a tounge in cheek remark...

Debate of any kind I can take but if asides like this:

It is, and they're doing so in an intelligent and articulate manner; which in many ways runs contrary to the spirit of the board.

are gunna be taken as serious then I dispare, I really do.

Oi Sergo, start posting more often, I'm coming back over to ya!

 

[Motokid]

I'm not exactly sure I said children should be treated as little adults....but that does not mean that children are not little humans...and therefore deserve some kind of respect. The arguement that what was good for my parents is good for me is not a valid arguement. many parents beat the snot out of their kids. Many fathers beat thier wives. Many parents abuse.

I believe that trying to reason with a child is a great place to start. If they understand why they should not do something, they are less likely to do it, rather than them just being scared of the consequences should they get caught.

And thanks for the props people. I appreciate the pat on the back. I was wondering how many people think my threads are useless or cause division and trouble. I'm know some here don't care for my trian of thought and reasoning....

 

[KristoCat]

My God, is a bloody nose or a broken bone such a catastrophic event that it would cause irreparable mental damage to a child? I think some of my best learned lessons in life came as a result of a broken bone or a bloody nose.

One important point my fiance brought up is the new prevalance of blood-bourne pathogens like AIDS or hepetitis. That's really the reason why educators don't want blood in schools. It's a very different health risk than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

On the other hand I agree with Kook that our lawsuit society has ruined a lot of things and experiences.

 

[Irene Wilde]

Interesting debate here betwen Motokid and Leckert. I think we are mixing the notion of discipline with the overall issue of over-protectiveness among parents. It does play a role, don't get me wrong, but Iwouldn't say it is entirely due to this that other problems arise. My wife and I don't spank our children and yes, it takes an awful lot of work to correct them. Undoubtedly there is an easier way to do it, but we don't want to go that route with our kids. Now this is not to say that a person should never spank-that can be just as effective or ineffective as a given parent wants it to be. At the same time, there is a problem with people who take a discipline model way too far and the kids don't mind. Ever see kids who are swatted twenty times a day and it still doesn't faze 'em? I've seen this happen one too many times. Some problems aren't really problems at all. Yes, I could swat my two year old at th store when he whines, but why not let him help me shop and give him something to do? Does that make a wuss out of him? I don't think so, as I've seen my boy play rough and tumble with kids twice his age(he's 2, so that would mean they're 4-big difference I know )

There was finally a discussion of spankings* on TBF and I missed it!




*For the record, I don't believe in spanking children, that's just perverted and wrong. Good spankings should be left to adults who can appreciate them.

 

[SFG75]

*For the record, I don't believe in spanking children, that's just perverted and wrong. Good spankings should be left to adults who can appreciate them.

LOL-Everytime I log in, I have no clue what in the world you guys will say next. That's part of the great thing about TBF, you never know what you'll get next, especially in regards to corporal punishment.

 

[sirmyk]

Regarding the pussification of America... just imaging your childrens' children. Scarry thought.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

This is all about our lawsuit-happy society. People are covering their asses thoroughly, like Wabbit described-the motorman wanted to be able to say "but I warned them! I warned them we were stopping, and they didn't pay attention to me!". Heck, when I was 12, I broke my foot on the playground at school and never once did we consider suing the school. For what?? the asphalt is too hard??

Yeah, the whole lawsuit thing is rediculous. I can't believe that the woman had the nerve to sure because she wasn't warned that her coffee was hot! What's the bet that if it was cold she would have sued for the "intention to cause hypothermia"

Here in NZ, people cannot sue others full stop (except in extreme cases I guess, but I havn't heard of any). I think it works much better this way because people arn't so scared of being sued all the time and so we really can get the most of what our country and its people has to offer.

I think that taking risks is what makes life fun - bungy jumping would not be as enjoyable if we were connected by a million ropes, and then jumped out over a foam floor with a saftey net over it. Having that slight danger that something might go wrong is what makes it so thrilling.

I can't say that people are being over-protected here, but with what I have picked up about the USA and the UK, NZ is a much more laid-back country.

 

[Stewart]

Sorry, that's not true

While the remark was tongue in cheek I think i finally see my problem with you. You disagree with people's opinions by telling them they are not true when an opinion is neither false or true.

 

[Wabbit]

I was just simply saying the forum is a good place and isn't so agressive all the time. This, to me, is true.

 

[mehastings]

Too much nowadays people try to be their kids' friend instead of parent. They want the kid to like them, so they don't say NO when they should. And if "Because I said so" was good enough for my mother, it's good enough for me.

I agree. I'm glad that I grew up before the "time out" generation. My parents put their foot down, wouldn't allow me to interupt adult converstations and spanked me when I did things that were dangerous. It seems like people are afraid to tell their kids NO these days because they want to be the "cool mom (or dad)" that they never had. I can't wait until I have kids so I can say "What part of no don't you understand?" and "Because I'm the mother, that's why".