The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich

[Meadow337]

The more I learn about the kind of ongoing resentment and you-did-this-200-years-ago-so-I-am-going-to-do-this-back that exists in the world the more convinced I am of the need for the power of forgiveness. A powerful example of the healing that can come from forgiveness can be seen in one of the smallest nations on earth - Timor-Leste. In very short Timor-Leste was war torn for many years with all kinds of militant guerrilla groups trying to wrest control. Reconciliation between these groups was largely due to the efforts of Nobel Peace Laureate (one of the few that actually deserve the award) Jose Ramos-Horte whose philosophy can be summed up in this recent quote:

Among our many achievements, one that is of great value, is the reconciliation among the divided Timorese family. Our Maun Bot Xanana who led us to freedom when all seemed lost, has led this unique reconciliation process with courage, determination and compassion. I am proud of being part of a society that has shown a great heart in resisting the temptation to exercise revenge in the name of justice.

In victory be magnanimous, never seek to humiliate the adversary; if he is on his knees hold his hands and plead with him to rise up, embrace him; walk halfway and meet the vanquished ones, embrace them, invite them to join in a new enterprise of peace, a new future for all. This has been my belief and in many ways this has been our practice since independence.
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If you want to know more about this amazing man: http://ramoshorta.com/

 

[DATo]

Excellent post Meadow. Thank you. I have copied that quote by Ramos-Horte to my list of most beloved quotes.

 

[Meadow337]

Excellent post Meadow. Thank you. I have copied that quote by Ramos-Horte to my list of most beloved quotes.

It is situations and people like this that give me hope, to bring in a discussion from another thread (on Cloud Atlas), there is hope for the world as long as there are people like this in it.

 

[Răspunsul]

I was told once long ago that in the calculation of the amount of German reparation an estimate was made (and included in the Versailles treaty) of every tree destroyed in France by Germany during the war.

One can hardly blame the French for their attitude in light of previous history but you are correct in my opinion. The excesses of the Treaty Of Versailles certainly contributed to the rise of Hitler. It was the number one topic on his list of rants.

Have you read Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire?
I think it would be in your realm of interest.

 

[DATo]

Have you read Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire?
I think it would be in your realm of interest.

I have all 7 volumes sitting on a bookshelf right next to me but I have not read them yet. I'd say that about 2/3 of my library (3,000 books) contains titles I have not read. The example of Rise and Fall Of The Third Reich illustrates my strategy: It was a dark and stormy night .... no, really, it WAS *LOL* ... in the middle of winter, and I wanted to sink myself into a good book. So I just absentmindedly looked over my bookshelves and found Rise and Fall. Much like Decline and Fall Of The Roman Empire it was a book I had wanted to read for a long time. So I took it down and immersed myself in it. I always try to find titles of quality (classics) when I am buying used books just to have a good collection of unread books for the times I want to read but do not want to leave the house to go to the library or bookstores.

Thanks for the recommendation. You have whet my interest in Gibbon now but I cringe at how epic an undertaking this will be to complete *Sigh* ... So may books. So little time.

 

[Meadow337]

... So may books. So little time.

The problem isn't even solved by having more time, annoyingly people keep writing new amazing books you just have to read and all the while all you want to do is scream 'Just STOP for a moment, let me catch up!" LOL

 

[Meadow337]

I was listening to this today and thought the lyrics appropriate to this discussion:

"Last Night I Had The Strangest Dream"

Last night I had the strangest dream
I ever dreamed before
I dreamed the world had all agreed
To put an end to war
I dreamed I saw a mighty room
The room was filled with men
And the paper they were signing said
They'd never fight again

And when the papers all were signed
And a million copies made
They all joined hands and bowed their heads
And grateful prayers were prayed
And the people in the streets below
Were dancing round and round
And guns and swords and uniforms
Were scattered on the ground

Last night I had the strangest dream
I ever dreamed before
I dreamed the world had all agreed
To put an end to war

 

[Millicent Beauchamp]

I'm a huge History geek and so this book seems extremely interesting. I always see it listed when searching for non-fiction (History) books. Your post made me really want to read it so I added it to my wish list.

Have you read Berlin Diary?

 

[DATo]

@Millicent --- OH NO !!!! .... I must admit once again to owning a book I have not read yet *LOL* Yes, I do own it and considering how much I liked Rise and Fall I can't believe I haven't gotten to it yet. I do know that Shirer was a news correspondent in Berlin at the time Hitler was rising to power. In fact the book has a picture of William Shirer in front of a window looking down on a street in Berlin with the Nazi bunting clearly visible. I have learned that at the end of the war Shirer was given exclusive rights of access to the German documentation that was seized by the U.S.A. and kept in a closely guarded place. I get the feeling that this may have been a reward for things he did for the U.S. government prior to the war .... perhaps he did some espionage work. I just thought it strange that he was the ONLY one to be given this access. Perhaps Berlin Diary will answer this question.

Edited to add Your post has caused me to bump Berlin Diary to the top of my "To Be Read" list.

@Meadow - I LOVE THAT POEM !!!!

 

[Meadow337]

@Meadow - I LOVE THAT POEM !!!!

Song sung by Pete Seeger, Janis Joplin and Simon and Garfunkel.... at least those are the versions I know.

 

[CaptchaReader]

Teachers have enormous influence on students and Hitler didn't suck his ideas out of thin air.

In any discussion on this topic, I like to insert my opinion that if he had never been born the German people would have put another puppet in his place to do their bidding.

No way to prove it either way - individual vs. society - but sick societies seem to be overlooked far too often.

 

[Peder]

In any discussion on this topic, I like to insert my opinion that if he had never been born the German people would have put another puppet in his place to do their bidding.

No way to prove it either way - individual vs. society - but sick societies seem to be overlooked far too often.

No way? I would say "yes, way." Whether he was puppet or leader of the German populace is certainly open to discussion and evaluation in the light of historical records. It seems to me you assume far too much in arriving at your conclusions.

 

[DATo]

In any discussion on this topic, I like to insert my opinion that if he had never been born the German people would have put another puppet in his place to do their bidding.

No way to prove it either way - individual vs. society - but sick societies seem to be overlooked far too often.

Actually, Hitler had a very steep climb to power according to this book, and he was never Germany's puppet ... quite the other way around. But your point is well taken. Perhaps someone else would have filled his role; but it is hard to believe that any other scenario would have resulted in the cataclysm engineered by Hitler - historically, the greatest cataclysm ever to befall mankind.

 

[CaptchaReader]

Actually, Hitler had a very steep climb to power according to this book, and he was never Germany's puppet ... quite the other way around. But your point is well taken. Perhaps someone else would have filled his role; but it is hard to believe that any other scenario would have resulted in the cataclysm engineered by Hitler - historically, the greatest cataclysm ever to befall mankind.

Fair enough. I am not familiar with specifics of his life or this book, but I am - gradually - reading The Holocaust Chronicle.

Mostly my opinion of him is a reaction to those who describe him as being great in any way.

 

[DATo]

Fair enough. I am not familiar with specifics of his life or this book, but I am - gradually - reading The Holocaust Chronicle.

Mostly my opinion of him is a reaction to those who describe him as being great in any way.

Hitler had only one quality that was off the charts "great" in my opinion and that was his power of persuasion. Even people who did not like him were drawn over to his side after hearing him speak. He was very charismatic in the sense that he knew how to work the crowd by telling them what they wanted to hear and playing to their nationalistic sentiments. Also, he showed up on the scene at precisely the right time in Germany's history - at a time when his powers of persuasion fell on fertile ground. Other than that he was totally inept as a military leader and his only tool for diplomacy was lying, lying lying. He himself is quoted as saying, "When you tell a lie enough times people will come to accept it as the truth."

 

[Peder]

He himself is quoted as saying, "When you tell a lie enough times people will come to accept it as the truth."

Which is exactly why I am so hard over in my firm and unyielding opposition to any use of words of respect like "genius" or "leader" or other words to ameliorate the absolute sinister evil that he brought to the world, including the destruction of his own country and the attempted eradication of a whole people and any memory and trace of their existence, history and contributions to humanity and civilization, forever: past, present and future. The Holocaust was not just about killing people, horrible enough though that is. It was far worse in its intended purpose of attempting to annihilate every trace of a complete segment of history, as if it never happened. That is what should be remembered forever, without any fuzzing of the picture. End of rant -- which I hope has not been wasted.

 

[DATo]

Peder, I don't think that history will EVER remember Hitler for anything but what he was - evil incarnate, no matter who does the lying or how much they do of it. My only concern is that with the passage of time future generations will become inured to the horror he perpetrated upon the world. I recently read that the last Holocaust survivor has died, and as we know many of the historical witnesses to World War II are also no longer with us. Soon there will be no living witnesses of WWII. But for the first time in history we have an advantage that other victims of evil tyrants did not have. We have a massive amount of media and historical documentation which CAN bear witness to future generations of the evil and destruction for which he was responsible.

 

[Peder]

Peder, I don't think that history will EVER remember Hitler for anything but what he was - evil incarnate, no matter who does the lying or how much they do of it. My only concern is that with the passage of time future generations will become inured to the horror he perpetrated upon the world. I recently read that the last Holocaust survivor has died, and as we know many of the historical witnesses to World War II are also no longer with us. Soon there will be no living witnesses of WWII. But for the first time in history we have an advantage that other victims of evil tyrants did not have. We have a massive amount of media and historical documentation which CAN bear witness to future generations of the evil and destruction for which he was responsible.

I guess I can only say that I share your hope, but not your optimism.

 

[pontalba]

Hitler ............. He himself is quoted as saying, "When you tell a lie enough times people will come to accept it as the truth."

Peder, I don't think that history will EVER remember Hitler for anything but what he was - evil incarnate, no matter who does the lying or how much they do of it.

I see no reason this lie, that you refer to, bolded by myself above is any different to any other lie told.
It's been my experience that the bigger and bolder the lie, the more readily it is believed by "people".

I guess I can only say that I share your hope, but not your optimism.

Agreed.

 

[Răspunsul]

Yet if the axis had won, England would be in a better position than it is now!