• Welcome to BookAndReader!

    We LOVE books and hope you'll join us in sharing your favorites and experiences along with your love of reading with our community. Registering for our site is free and easy, just CLICK HERE!

    Already a member and forgot your password? Click here.

Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

Let us say (for the sake of this discussion) that you have already died of either a coronary thrombosis or in childbirth. Which fictional life will have been the most worst then?

Also, I went back and reread Martin Amis's article, and it still didn't sound elitist or snotty to me. I read Brian Boyd's just to double check my powers of reason, and they both sounded just fine.

Maybe I'd better sleep on this one. I'm starting to pull my hair.
 
pontalba said:
Does it have to be either Lolita or Humbert? The choice I mean. Such as it is. Which it isn't IMHO. I mean, who wants to be like Humbert. Even putting the execution aside? No sane person. And Lolita, I don't think so! Its not in my nature to allow someone like Humbert to corner me. I'd have to get away from him, and I wouldn't care where I went as long as it was AWAY from him.

I choose Vivian Darkbloom.

Which come to think of it is exactly what Lolita did.....! But it wouldn't have taken me so long I can guarantee that.

Oh, pontalba! I was talking about Martin Amis's reference to which of the two characters VN was the cruelest to. Maybe we're talking at cross purposes, and I'm tearing my hair for no reason. Viv's not even in the running for that prize. :confused:
 
StillILearn said:
Oh, pontalba! I was talking about Martin Amis's reference to which of the two characters VN was the cruelest to. Maybe we're talking at cross purposes, and I'm tearing my hair for no reason. Viv's not even in the running for that prize. :confused:

I know, I was going out of the box. But I do think we have been talking at cross purposes.

OK. IOW, which character had the toughest life experience?
In that case I would say Lolita. She was abandoned by her mother, captured somewhat similarly to a butterfly!, kept prisoner, lived a short, mostly miserable life, and died in childbirth. Yeah, I'd say Lolita. If only for the reason that she did not have the chance to live a life. Humbert had a chance to live a life, no matter how twisted it was, he lived it.
 
StillILearn said:
Let us say (for the sake of this discussion) that you have already died of either a coronary thrombosis or in childbirth. Which fictional life will have been the most worst then?

Also, I went back and reread Martin Amis's article, and it still didn't sound elitist or snotty to me. I read Brian Boyd's just to double check my powers of reason, and they both sounded just fine.

Maybe I'd better sleep on this one. I'm starting to pull my hair.
Still,
I certainly don't want you to be pulling out your hair, especially if the difference is because we are not understanding each other. So let me do due diligence and really try to understand what Amis was driving at.
Meanwhile, sleep well,
Peder
 
StillILearn said:
Peder wrote

Amis wrote



Peder, after some ponderation, the way I am understanding Amis's statement is like this: As horrible as it must have been to be the victim of HH's abuse, how much worse is it to actually be the perpetrator, the "moral heap" and the causation of all this grief and horror. It is in this way that I understand VN to have been crueler to HH than he was to Lolita. Wouldn't we all rather be Lo than the despicable Hummy?

The word finesse seems to have been well-chosen in this case, too.
Still, Hi,
I have reread the Amis article (or excerpt) and thought about excerpting it here more extensively. Instead I'll sketch in its outline using thoughts from key sentences from Amis.
He begins by observing that 'death trickles through Lolita,' and goes on to prove his point by ennumerating and commenting on all the deaths that occur, of major and minor characters.
He then asks rhetorically how VN could accommodate such a story to the funny, inspired and racy novel (his words) that Lolita turned out to be. I take him to be in the process of answering that question when he asserts
But this is not a straightforward matter. Lolita is a cruel book about cruelty.
and he buttresses that assertion by discussing just how cruel Nabokov's characters can be to each other, even in other novels beside Lolita.
Then he makes what I take to be his key point, both in answering his own original question, (how did Nabokov do it, i.e create such a funny, inspired, racy novel from such materials?)) as well as also being a key point for our discussion here
Morally the novel is all ricochet and rebound. However cruel Humbert was to Lolita, Nabokov was crueller to Humbert -- finessingly cruel.
In context I now take that to be an explannation of Nabokov's technique, that even as Humbert's cruelties to Lolita are described front and center, Nabokov's description is such as to simultaneously cause us the readers to see how despicable Humbert is. And he uses extreme finesses in being able to describe the situation and evoke that desired response in us, cruelly displaying Humbert as the vile person he is. Amis says we begin with a smirk as we read of Humbert's plan to bribe Lolita for her favors, but our features congeal as we realize just how unforgivable Humbert is. Amis wraps up that paragraph with the explanation that
It is complicated and unreassuring. Even so, that is how it works.
where I take the "it" to refer to Nabokov's technique of ricochet and rebound, i.e. causing us to loathe Humbert as he is telling us the story of the cruelty he inflicts on Lolita., and as Nabokov also causes our reactions to oscillate from amused to loathsome during that telling.

Without going further into our different reactions to Amis's discussion, I hope, at least so far, that my summary of Amis's discussion sounds reasonable to you

But mostly I hope that Amis does not succeed in driving a wedge into our friendly discussions even if we might eventually see his same remarks differently.

Sincerely, :)
Peder


OOPS, Submitted, instead of Previewing. Please overlook surviving typos
 
And Still,
while I am at it, let me say that I was wrong to use the word elitist. You were right, the article is not elitist. It seems to be Amis wrestling with the basic puzzle: "What makes Lolita so appealing?" when in Amis's view it has a such a lot of death and cruelty in it. In any event, in the passage that we were discussing, it now seems much more clearly to me that he was simply wrestling with trying to describe the complexity of VN's prose, the multiple narrators, perspectives and attitudes that are part of Lolita and which were also pointed out in Pifer's Casebook. That I found Amis confusing is not necessarily a sin of his writing, but I did find it confusing and requiring some unraveling.
Hope we are closer to being on the same page now. :)
Peder
 
Peder said:
discussing just how cruel Nabokov's characters can be to each other, even in other novels beside Lolita.

Ignoring the rest of the post for the moment... has a book ever been written where characters aren't "cruel" to one another? I can't think of one. :confused:
 
Steffee Good point.

Peder Strictly speaking you are right, the article is not elitist. OTOH, it is pretentious. Parts of the article make me think that Amis simply enjoys the sound of his own voice. It seems that he is very popular, so a lot of people must think his point of view is valid.

But after all we are here to discuss, not agree with everything everyone says! Where'd the fun be in that? :eek: :cool: :rolleyes: :p :D ;)
 
steffee said:
Ignoring the rest of the post for the moment... has a book ever been written where characters aren't "cruel" to one another? I can't think of one. :confused:
Steffee
Without even thinking I just about have to anwer no. You sent my memories right back to freshman English when the instructor asked us to write an essay about someone we knew, anyone. As a hint he said "Pick someone you don't like. There's not so much you can say about a nice person, and it will get boring after a while anyway. Pick someone you don't like and you'll have no problem with the assignment."
So, you pass Freshman English! :D :D :D
Tension, strife, disaster, crime are what we seem to thrive on. :) Strange world.
But to answer your question, I seem to remember hearing that Dostoyevsky's The Idiot was all about a completely good person, and the title tells you something about that story. But otherwise none come to mind. So I wonder how Amis would distinguish Nabokov's cruelties from the others. That would be harder. :confused:
Peder
 
Peder said:
And Still,
while I am at it, let me say that I was wrong to use the word elitist. You were right, the article is not elitist. It seems to be Amis wrestling with the basic puzzle: "What makes Lolita so appealing?" when in Amis's view it has a such a lot of death and cruelty in it. In any event, in the passage that we were discussing, it now seems much more clearly to me that he was simply wrestling with trying to describe the complexity of VN's prose, the multiple narrators, perspectives and attitudes that are part of Lolita and which were also pointed out in Pifer's Casebook. That I found Amis confusing is not necessarily a sin of his writing, but I did find it confusing and requiring some unraveling.
Hope we are closer to being on the same page now. :)
Peder

Oh, blessed relief. All of what you have written in both posts above makes perfect sense to me. That's what I was reading too. A writer writing about how a Writer does it. I hear admiration, along with a desire to understand Nabokov's method (and an appreciation of his genius) in Amis's words.

I can't even begin to imagine that a disagreement about a book review would be grounds for driving a wedge between book lovers such as we are here on TBF.

I am just so grateful to have y'all to wrangle with! ;) :D
 
steffee said:
Ignoring the rest of the post for the moment... has a book ever been written where characters aren't "cruel" to one another? I can't think of one. :confused:

Good point, steffee. Only Winnie-the-Pooh. And there may be cruelty in there! :D Fairy tales are awash with it.
 
pontalba said:
Steffee Good point.

Peder Strictly speaking you are right, the article is not elitist. OTOH, it is pretentious. Parts of the article make me think that Amis simply enjoys the sound of his own voice. It seems that he is very popular, so a lot of people must think his point of view is valid.

But after all we are here to discuss, not agree with everything everyone says! Where'd the fun be in that? :eek: :cool: :rolleyes: :p :D ;)

I agree, pontalba. Martin does have a slightly 'arch' tone about him, but I'll bet that comes from having Kingsley for a father. ;) And I hope we never come to a point where we don't disagree about anything around here. If that ever happens it'll surely be time to get our own heads examined.
:D
 
pontalba said:
Steffee Good point.

Peder Strictly speaking you are right, the article is not elitist. OTOH, it is pretentious. Parts of the article make me think that Amis simply enjoys the sound of his own voice. It seems that he is very popular, so a lot of people must think his point of view is valid.

But after all we are here to discuss, not agree with everything everyone says! Where'd the fun be in that? :eek: :cool: :rolleyes: :p :D ;)
Pontalba,
Well, he is popular and well thought of, so I hesitate to quarrel with his writing or his ideas. But it wasn't so clear to me that he was 'friendly' toward Lolita, and I wondered why he wrote the article as he did. As a hatchet job it wasn't too bad. But I can't imagine that some editor said "write us an article about death and cruelty in Lolita." Although maybe. And one of his concluding thoughts referring to the book's 'celebrity' sounded a little critical, as if its acclaim was excessive. So I wonder, but I think his analysis was at least fact-based (except for some very vague phrases like "ricochet-rebound" and "finessingly cruel" which took/take some deciphering).
But you are right that he wasn't in any doubt about what he was saying, except that it didn't quite sound like the book I had read.
Dunno, :confused:
Peder
 
:eek: I don't know Peder sometimes the more "popular" a writer is the more I wonder about them, and want to examine it. LOL
 
StillILearn said:
A writer writing about how a Writer does it. I hear admiration, along with a desire to understand Nabokov's method (and an appreciation of his genius) in Amis's words.
Still
"A writer writing about how a Writer does it."
Why couldn't I have thought of putting it that way? :D
Until someone else comes along you have won today's Prize for Concise Clarity. :D
And "admiration" and "appreciation" for VN's genius also sound real, now that you point them out.
We may be on the same page now, but you were, and still are, 'way ahead of me in reading it. How does it turn out? :D :D :D
Peder
 
pontalba said:
:eek: I don't know Peder sometimes the more "popular" a writer is the more I wonder about them, and want to examine it. LOL
Pontalba!
You haven't been taking courses in Cynicism from the Master here, have you? :eek:
Peder
Master of Cynical Arts
 
Peder said:
Steffee
Without even thinking I just about have to anwer no. You sent my memories right back to freshman English when the instructor asked us to write an essay about someone we knew, anyone. As a hint he said "Pick someone you don't like. There's not so much you can say about a nice person, and it will get boring after a while anyway. Pick someone you don't like and you'll have no problem with the assignment."
So, you pass Freshman English! :D :D :D
Tension, strife, disaster, crime are what we seem to thrive on. :) Strange world.
But to answer your question, I seem to remember hearing that Dostoyevsky's The Idiot was all about a completely good person, and the title tells you something about that story. But otherwise none come to mind. So I wonder how Amis would distinguish Nabokov's cruelties from the others. That would be harder. :confused:
Peder

It's a shame isn't it? But maybe the reason we like to read about negative scenarios is because none of us are 100% good, and who wants to read about someone they could never compare with, in any way... not that I'd want to compare myself with either HH or Lo, or Charlotte, Quilty or anyone in Lolita, and many other books, but still...

I haven't read The Idiot, but I can see why the title fits the story... :)

And what an interesting teacher you had!! :)

Still, I can't remember much about Winnie the Pooh, but one of the characters surely must be a tteny bit less than pure "good".

So far we have Winne the Pooh, and The Idiot.
 
Peder said:
Steffee,
That's not bad -- one for children, one for grownups.
Maybe that's all the world can stand :eek:
Peder


That's funny, Peder! I have yet to read The Idiot, but it just went straight onto my TBR list.

And, steffee, if my memory serves me right, I would guess that Eeyore is the major problem child in the Pooh series. What d'ya think? :D

Take the Pooh personality test
 
Back
Top