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Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita
- Thread starter Love4OneAnother
- Start date
Peder
Well-Known Member
P.s.
And, oh yes, I forgot the reason for that whole line of thought.
Which was simply to observe that while we might discuss sympathy for him, we needn't confuse that with any suggestion that he be absolved of punishment for his crimes. (I'm still lobbying for his genuine change of heart,, you can see
)
Peder
And, oh yes, I forgot the reason for that whole line of thought.
Which was simply to observe that while we might discuss sympathy for him, we needn't confuse that with any suggestion that he be absolved of punishment for his crimes. (I'm still lobbying for his genuine change of heart,, you can see
)Peder
StillILearn
New Member
Peder said:Pontalba!
ROTFLOL. "Master Manipulator" indeed!
I can almost hear the TV ads
"Are you feeling manipulated today?....."
Peder
So that's what those "Purple Pills" are for!
StillILearn
New Member
I loved this observation, steffee. Here I have been thinking and saying that HH did indeed love Lolita, but my definition of love has been warped by HH's own selfish definition of that emotion. He needed and desired and was obsessed by Lolita, but did he actually love her? Even at the end, did he want what was best for her? Or was he still only thinking of himself?
My guess is that this is the case. It is intended as ridicule.
pontalba
Well-Known Member
Yes, but love by what defination? What is real love? Empathy yes. Protection, yes. Desiring to put the other's needs before all else, yes. Humbert attempted to do these things in varying strength. Because he failed, does not mean he did not love. In His Own Way. If one is not capable of loving the way another prescribes, is it to be designated "not love"? That outlook is no fairer than what Humbert did.
We cannot say that because someone does not love the way we wish them to, or doesn't meet our criteria for love, that it is not love.
Love is sooo many things to different people, and cultures that it is impossible to give a definative meaning. IMHO.
We cannot say that because someone does not love the way we wish them to, or doesn't meet our criteria for love, that it is not love.
Love is sooo many things to different people, and cultures that it is impossible to give a definative meaning. IMHO.
Peder
Well-Known Member
Hi Steffee,
I think I missed your post before. If so, very sorry.
I definitely vote for contrition, on the evidence.
I vote for love also, but more in the sense that Pontalba has been pointing out. He gave it his best shot. But I read all the relevant scenes as being rather equivocal on the point, unfortunately for proving anything. He was talking the talk, but would he have walked the walk?
OTOH I am a great believer in the changes that genuine contrition can bring about, so that is probably a major reason I vote for love, namely as a consequence of sincere contrition.
But I think your points are very well taken and I am not about to try to disprove any of them.
Peder
I think I missed your post before. If so, very sorry.
I don't mean to be contentious, but i wouldn't say there is a lot of evidence in favor of love. There is more, I would say, of evidence that he was deeply anguished and ashamed of his actions and deeply sorry for his actions, as you say. That i would certainly agree with.steffee said:
And I definitely agree that the whole things comes down to empathy. And that, I think, is the hard part to prove, because we have so little of his 'new' behavior to go by.
I definitely vote for contrition, on the evidence.
I vote for love also, but more in the sense that Pontalba has been pointing out. He gave it his best shot. But I read all the relevant scenes as being rather equivocal on the point, unfortunately for proving anything. He was talking the talk, but would he have walked the walk?
OTOH I am a great believer in the changes that genuine contrition can bring about, so that is probably a major reason I vote for love, namely as a consequence of sincere contrition.
But I think your points are very well taken and I am not about to try to disprove any of them.
Peder
Peder
Well-Known Member
Hmm, Pontalba,pontalba said:
A very valid point, so I think that means I should backtrack a tad on it all coming down to empathy. That is a big part of it in my view, but different people certainly do show their love in different ways. I would think it fair to say that Humbert showed it in the best way he could in the circumstances. He certainly didn't show any thought or action that would deny the possibility that he finally loved Lolita, I don't think. So, as you do, I still think the scale does tip toward his finally having a loving attitude toward her. Which I why, up above, I was at pains to try to find a self-sacrificing theme toward the end. That would be supporting evidence in my mind, even if not exactly of empathy, but of a different manifestation of love.
Knotty topic that love thing
Peder
pontalba
Well-Known Member
Peder said:Hmm, Pontalba,
......try to find a self-sacrificing theme toward the end. That would be supporting evidence in my mind, even if not exactly of empathy, but of a different manifestation of love.
Knotty topic that love thing
Peder
Peder
Self-sacrifice certainly is a large part of "love". I would like to say that I think that Humbert would have kept on with his newer and better attitude towards her. I am not sure though. Lets just say that I have wavered back and forth on that issue. But, in the end, I think he would have. At least if he had those thoughts again, he could have controlled them. Because of the realizations he came to, for example when he castigated himself for her voice not being among those children her heard and saw in the distance.
One thing in his favor was that he made as sure as he could that the story would not be published until after her death. As much as he desired absolution, he still wanted to wait until the story coming out could not have hurt her.
But I am a romantic at heart, even while being cynical.
Gordian Knot at least. Where is Alexander when we need him?
Peder
Well-Known Member
pontalba said:Peder
Lets just say that I have wavered back and forth on that issue. But, in the end, I think he would have. At least if he had those thoughts again, he could have controlled them. Because of the realizations he came to, for example when he castigated himself for her voice not being among those children her heard and saw in the distance.
But I am a romantic at heart, even while being cynical.
Gordian Knot at least. Where is Alexander when we need him?
Pontalba,
It also seems to me that another factor in his favor, and supporting your view and mine also, was his attitude at their last conversation. He was broken-hearted, of course, ("It would have made all the difference") but he wasn't angry with her. Rather he seemed resigned to the fact that she was going her way (free, incidentally) and that it was just simply going to be that way. He didn't reproach her, but allowed her her existence and her freedom. That was a big step forward for him.
Nothing wrong with romantic. Nothing wrong with cynical either. And it is an easy topic to waver on, there is so little to go on. So join the club.
But when you find Alexander, tell him to bring his sword!
Peder
Gem
kickbox
Everyone,
Thoughtful posts, in fact i think between you guys you've said most of what is swirling around in my head. So i'll just add briefly that i agree that he did love her - or at least love her in his own way. Not at first though - as i don't believe he actually 'saw' her then, he was too wrapped up in his nymphet fantasies - the result being that he constantly objectified her. At the end though when he sees her as this pregnant seventeen year old, no longer a nymphet - thats when we get a real insight into his feelings - and perhaps thats when he too realises that his 'love' feelings are genuine - and he justifies his own actions by killing Quilty - transforming himself from pedophile to sorry lover.
As Peder so aptly put it - Knotty topic that love thing. Unless we can define exactly what love is or what type of love is relevant to Lolita, i'll have to stick with thinking that HH did love her.
I'm going to go now, before you all come back and make me do some more thinking. All this thinking can't be healthy
Thoughtful posts, in fact i think between you guys you've said most of what is swirling around in my head. So i'll just add briefly that i agree that he did love her - or at least love her in his own way. Not at first though - as i don't believe he actually 'saw' her then, he was too wrapped up in his nymphet fantasies - the result being that he constantly objectified her. At the end though when he sees her as this pregnant seventeen year old, no longer a nymphet - thats when we get a real insight into his feelings - and perhaps thats when he too realises that his 'love' feelings are genuine - and he justifies his own actions by killing Quilty - transforming himself from pedophile to sorry lover.
As Peder so aptly put it - Knotty topic that love thing. Unless we can define exactly what love is or what type of love is relevant to Lolita, i'll have to stick with thinking that HH did love her.
I'm going to go now, before you all come back and make me do some more thinking. All this thinking can't be healthy
StillILearn
New Member
Gem said:I'm going to go now, before you all come back and make me do some more thinking. All this thinking can't be healthy
Thinking and reading. Where will it all end?
pontalba
Well-Known Member
Gem said:transforming himself from pedophile to sorry lover.
Unless we can define exactly what love is or what type of love is relevant to Lolita, i'll have to stick with thinking that HH did love her.
I'm going to go now, before you all come back and make me do some more thinking. All this thinking can't be healthy
Gem
I love the line you wrote about HH transforming himself! How marvelous and true! I'd not chrystalized that fact into words.
And we will never be able to define the precise meaning of love, as there are as many types as humans.....
This is a tangent, but a long ago love of my Aunt's had been in a concentration camp during WWII, and one thing he told her about it was that thinking was the one thing "they" couldn't take away from a person.
Peder
Well-Known Member
We--e--ell! Look who's here!
Hi Pontalba! Gem!
I've been thinking lately, and maybe it has led me into mischief, as Gem predicted. But it is a thought which, even if it isn't true, ought to be true. Unfortunately, the first place I looked for confiirmation -- namely, the Purple Pill scene -- didn't provide the confirmation I was looking for. So this may all only be speculation, but I'll float it here anyway for those who have sharper eyes and recollections than I have.
And at this point I suppose this will be a spoiler, so Breaca and others still reading, just close your eyes put you hands over you ears and press the scroll button about 20 hundred times to get past the end of this post. And if somebody later on says the post wasn't worth reading, then you can come back and read it sometime
BEGIN SPOILER
It all began with the comment that (I think) someone up above made that, even during his recollection of his sordid predatory behavior, Humbert was nevertheless also aware at the same time that he was behaving monstrously. Let's take "Oh, monstrous me." as a fictitious indicator phrase that I just made up, just so we can talk about such comments.
It occurs to me that Humbert's diary/confession/recollections, which we start reading early in the book, were actually recorded quite late in the story, after almost all the major events had taken place. It therefore seems possible to me that his confession may have a layered quality about it.
The underlayer, such as the whole Purple Pill story, is very likely a truthful rendition of events in the manner in which they did exactly happen, together with his accurate frames of mind and motivations at those times in the past.
I would suggest -- correctly or not remains to be decided -- that there may also be a top layer that might be peeled off, which represents his 'now' views, after the possible change of heart that we have been discussing. He is after all writing the confession after we see evidence of his possible change of heart. And it is exactly his "Oh monstrous me" comments that might well be taken to represent his current state of mind and, therefore, as defining a later top layer.
The point of thiis way of looking at things might be illustrated using the Purple Pill scene. If in essence he had said "Oh monstrous me, it was evil to do, I know, but I fed her the pill anyway," then we would have serious doubts about the truth of his "monstrous me" comments and his knowing that it was monstrous behavior.
But, if they represent the simultaneous appearance of two layers of the story on the same page, i.e. two truthful comments, but from widely separated points in time, then we may be justified in thinking that the "monstrous me"` comments are actually heart-felt and that they are evidence of his subsequent contrition. And not just posturing at the same time that he was doing nefarious things to Lolita.
END SPOILER
But, as I say, I haven't found confirmation for these conjectures in connection with the Purple Pill story, but maybe someone else can find such, either there or somewhere else in the story.
And as I said, if it isn't true, it ought to be true, so maybe the evidence is there to be found, aftr all. Trust Nabokov, as Brian Boyd said.
Thanks for listening,
Peder
Hi Pontalba! Gem!
I've been thinking lately, and maybe it has led me into mischief, as Gem predicted. But it is a thought which, even if it isn't true, ought to be true. Unfortunately, the first place I looked for confiirmation -- namely, the Purple Pill scene -- didn't provide the confirmation I was looking for. So this may all only be speculation, but I'll float it here anyway for those who have sharper eyes and recollections than I have.
And at this point I suppose this will be a spoiler, so Breaca and others still reading, just close your eyes put you hands over you ears and press the scroll button about 20 hundred times to get past the end of this post. And if somebody later on says the post wasn't worth reading, then you can come back and read it sometime
BEGIN SPOILER
It all began with the comment that (I think) someone up above made that, even during his recollection of his sordid predatory behavior, Humbert was nevertheless also aware at the same time that he was behaving monstrously. Let's take "Oh, monstrous me." as a fictitious indicator phrase that I just made up, just so we can talk about such comments.
It occurs to me that Humbert's diary/confession/recollections, which we start reading early in the book, were actually recorded quite late in the story, after almost all the major events had taken place. It therefore seems possible to me that his confession may have a layered quality about it.
The underlayer, such as the whole Purple Pill story, is very likely a truthful rendition of events in the manner in which they did exactly happen, together with his accurate frames of mind and motivations at those times in the past.
I would suggest -- correctly or not remains to be decided -- that there may also be a top layer that might be peeled off, which represents his 'now' views, after the possible change of heart that we have been discussing. He is after all writing the confession after we see evidence of his possible change of heart. And it is exactly his "Oh monstrous me" comments that might well be taken to represent his current state of mind and, therefore, as defining a later top layer.
The point of thiis way of looking at things might be illustrated using the Purple Pill scene. If in essence he had said "Oh monstrous me, it was evil to do, I know, but I fed her the pill anyway," then we would have serious doubts about the truth of his "monstrous me" comments and his knowing that it was monstrous behavior.
But, if they represent the simultaneous appearance of two layers of the story on the same page, i.e. two truthful comments, but from widely separated points in time, then we may be justified in thinking that the "monstrous me"` comments are actually heart-felt and that they are evidence of his subsequent contrition. And not just posturing at the same time that he was doing nefarious things to Lolita.
END SPOILER
But, as I say, I haven't found confirmation for these conjectures in connection with the Purple Pill story, but maybe someone else can find such, either there or somewhere else in the story.
And as I said, if it isn't true, it ought to be true, so maybe the evidence is there to be found, aftr all.
Trust Nabokov, as Brian Boyd said. Thanks for listening,
Peder
pontalba
Well-Known Member
remorse and bruised peaches.....
Peder The story would have to have been told thru the telescope of future knowledge. If he'd felt all the remorse he shows at the end, he would have in fact done as he later wished on p.123 at the bottom of the page...... "And my only regret today is that I did not quietly deposit key "342" at the office, and leave the town, the country, the continent, the hemisphere,---indeed, the globe--that very same night." Now if he'd written it as it happened, I have to say it would have been quite different!
Of course he also tries to rationalize what he has done, by speaking of the fact that he was not her first lover. And the whole bit on p.135 speaking about Roman law etc..........rationalization upon rationalization.
On a different track, (but the same) notice that the fruit they ate together was all......past its prime. Flavorless mealy bananas, bruised peaches. Describing Lolita?
Peder The story would have to have been told thru the telescope of future knowledge. If he'd felt all the remorse he shows at the end, he would have in fact done as he later wished on p.123 at the bottom of the page...... "And my only regret today is that I did not quietly deposit key "342" at the office, and leave the town, the country, the continent, the hemisphere,---indeed, the globe--that very same night." Now if he'd written it as it happened, I have to say it would have been quite different!
Of course he also tries to rationalize what he has done, by speaking of the fact that he was not her first lover. And the whole bit on p.135 speaking about Roman law etc..........rationalization upon rationalization.
On a different track, (but the same) notice that the fruit they ate together was all......past its prime. Flavorless mealy bananas, bruised peaches. Describing Lolita?
Peder
Well-Known Member
pontalba said:
Oh Pontalba!
You take my breath away! I can see that with you around I am going to have to think-think, not just think!
Now I am going to have to figure out just where the time wrap occurs! But good, but good!
And 'bruised peaches for Lolita?' You have knocked me down flat on the floor with that, and my toes aren't even wiggling. Wow, what a connection!
Barely have strength enough to type
Peder
pontalba
Well-Known Member
Why Shucks Peder. Its only logical progression.
thanks!In the book I am reading now, (see above) of course only the first section deals with Lolita, but the observations she makes! I highly recommend this book to anyone that has read and empathized with either Lo or HH. Nafisi mentions that Nabokov called himself a "painterly writer", and the scene she uses as an illustration is on p. 110, when HH picks Lolita up from the camp after, um, Charlotte's untimely demise. Its the last paragraph on 110 thru to the top of p.111.
BTW, while skimming for that page number above, I happened to see on p.79 the first few lines in chapter 19. "(a bad accident is to happen quite soon)." Talk about understatement! Sly dog that VN is!
Peder
Well-Known Member
Time line
Pontalba,
Let's see.
The first part of this has to be finding when the book was written and where that occurs with respect to the events being described in the rest of the story
MORE SPOILERS
The clearest statements I could find occur on p308, where he says "this then is my story" and he goes on to say he "started 56 days ago to write Lolita" And these statements occur even after the hillside scene, so he finished writing quite late in the story. He mentions writing in a psychiatric institution and then in tombnal seclusion during those 56 days, so it sounds certain that his writing all took place after he said goodby to Melmoth on p307 (in itself a touching scene).
To me, that indicates that all the events of the book, including any change of heart, took place before he set pen to paper to write the book, with the early stages of the story occurring long years before. In addition to which, on the first page of the story he is already using the words 'murderer' and 'ladies and gentlemen of the jury.' These further suggest that even that page was written after the climactic events of the story.
So I think all of the events in the book occurred first. Then, afterward, he wrote them all down in the manuscript for the book we now read. Which to me further suggests that, for every event in the story, there would be the possibilty for him to say "had I but known then what I know now, I would/should have done it differently" or "oh monstrous me,..etc" And these would be the kinds of remarks and attitudes that I suggested would form a top layer in the narrative. From the timeline above, it would certainly seem that they could reflect the remorse he claims at the end of his story.
END SPOILERS
Now to find examples, if any.
Where, oh where, did I leave that magnifying glass?
Peder
Pontalba,
Let's see.
The first part of this has to be finding when the book was written and where that occurs with respect to the events being described in the rest of the story
MORE SPOILERS
The clearest statements I could find occur on p308, where he says "this then is my story" and he goes on to say he "started 56 days ago to write Lolita" And these statements occur even after the hillside scene, so he finished writing quite late in the story. He mentions writing in a psychiatric institution and then in tombnal seclusion during those 56 days, so it sounds certain that his writing all took place after he said goodby to Melmoth on p307 (in itself a touching scene).
To me, that indicates that all the events of the book, including any change of heart, took place before he set pen to paper to write the book, with the early stages of the story occurring long years before. In addition to which, on the first page of the story he is already using the words 'murderer' and 'ladies and gentlemen of the jury.' These further suggest that even that page was written after the climactic events of the story.
So I think all of the events in the book occurred first. Then, afterward, he wrote them all down in the manuscript for the book we now read. Which to me further suggests that, for every event in the story, there would be the possibilty for him to say "had I but known then what I know now, I would/should have done it differently" or "oh monstrous me,..etc" And these would be the kinds of remarks and attitudes that I suggested would form a top layer in the narrative. From the timeline above, it would certainly seem that they could reflect the remorse he claims at the end of his story.
END SPOILERS
Now to find examples, if any.
Where, oh where, did I leave that magnifying glass?
Peder