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Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

StillILearn said:
Um. San Francisco Gate, would you mind quoting your sources?

:rolleyes:
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Apologies Still-I took a bit of a vacation from this thread and a few others, not sure why, but that happens from time to time. In regards to evidence, I'd suggest checking out the quotes provided in post #305 on page 21(or was it 22?) of the thread. I'm not completely playing down H.H.'s role in this by any means, but it appears that this girl naively worked to ruin her own life. Perhaps she thought manipulating men like mommy may have done is the meaning of life? Or at least how you get ahead?
 
SFG75 Nice to see ya back. :) However, I have to take some strident exception to your comments. If blame must be accorded, there is plenty to go around. Firstly, the mommy dearest, Charlotte. Uncaring, manipulative, man crazy. Secondly, HH, pervert extraordinaire. Last but certainly not least Lolita herself. Headstrong, manipulative, but most of all cornered by the so-called adults in her life.

How is that Lolita's fault?

She reacted as an animal protecting itself. What you say is a little like blaming the rape victim for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
:mad: :confused:
 
Exhibit A

SFG75 said:
I rise your honor to object-if it may please the court, co-counsel for H. would like to present a few points.

First, H.H. is not the predatory monster he is made out to be. Thoughts are not crimes, actions are. What is the mindset of H.? He is a man who is unsure and doesn't act.

-a page

Now he doesn't act, but that brazen little tart certainly pushes him from inaction to....well.......yeah.

Exhibit #1: Lo attacks H.H.



Keep in mind that it isn't Humbert who pulls her over to him. Nooooooo, it's that brazen devil-child. To use a gun analogy, H.H. is a finely tuned gun with the bullets(i.e.-the inclination) to engage in inappropriate actions. It was Lo who tripped the triggers......repeatedly.

inspite of that young trollop throwing herself at him, he persevered.



Exhibit #2-the second attack on a deeply conflicted, and certifiably ill man-H.H. by that morally bankrupt Lo.



statements by the little vixen that show her morally debased nature.





Exhibit #4-Her actions at camp with that dullard Charles.:eek: :eek:

I move that H.H. be declared guilty by reason of insanity, as brought on by a conniving, trigger-tripping-happy little aphrodite.:D

**Co-counsel leaves the room after reciting the hot and heavy lap-scene which has left him bewildered to say the least.**:eek: :D
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Your witness, pontalba.
 
My defense of H.H. was a "devil's advocate" thing, the idea of a trial was floated around and it seemed as if the jury had already come to a decision. Not wanting such a result without even a minimal discussion for his defense, I wondered what Johnny Cochran would've done, hence, the character assassination.:cool:

I do agree that there is plenty of blame to go around, her behavior is quite split IMHO. Yes, instinct is a powerful thing and in any situation, one will do things that in retrospect, a person won't do without being under great duress. Was it absolutely necessary for her to ask H.H. to carry her upstairs for another tryst? :confused: Was he demanding anything of her at the time? If so, I certainly couldn't find any reference to it in the reading. Perhaps that can be chalked up to poor moral upbringing and failure to see that engaging in such actions were ruining her self-esteem and dampened her mood(hence the constant crying) The quotes provided in my "brief" to the jury :p highlight a girl who is hardly passive as say, a captive who is held against her will by an attacker.

On another line, I may have asked this or I may have not. Could someone kindly point out the line where it is stated that she cried after every *encounter* with H.H.? I don't doubt such lines exist, just would like to know a few specific ones as I failed to notice their presence in the reading.
 
found

Peder First off, I found the squirrel. p.140 toward the bottom of the page. And btw, no intonation is intimated for Lo, but for HH, as he is eager for any conversation from Lo at that point.

SFG75 The most telling of the "crying" statements is at the top of p.176. This takes place just before they land at Beardsley. ".....and her sobs in the night--every night, every night---the moment I feigned sleep."

Other statements such as the one on p.169 could be partially frustration at being thwarted by HH who had promised her something in the throes of passion. But I find them indicative of a deeper frustration, one that is so deep that it finds its way to the surface even during the day.

StillILearn :) I bow to our Senior Council Peder. Would Council Peder please continue?

:D
 
/returns from Borders. Sticks head up. Pulls head down, just as rocket goes by. :D . Now flipping pages. /
 
SFG75 said:
My defense of H.H. was a "devil's advocate" thing, the idea of a trial was floated around and it seemed as if the jury had already come to a decision. Not wanting such a result without even a minimal discussion for his defense, I wondered what Johnny Cochran would've done, hence, the character assassination.:cool:

On another line, I may have asked this or I may have not. Could someone kindly point out the line where it is stated that she cried after every *encounter* with H.H.? I don't doubt such lines exist, just would like to know a few specific ones as I failed to notice their presence in the reading.
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Good for you, SFG75. We needed somebody brave enough to take on the role of devil's advocate. I believe maybe we won his last defense attorney over. Or scared him off! :D

Prepare to meet thy doom, though -- uh-oh! -- That's exactly what I said to Johnny Cochran!

:rolleyes:
 
Maybe its because I am fairly new to book forums in general that I think this sooo cool. I'm down here on the northshore of Lake Pontchartrain, Peder is in NYC, StillILearn way over there in California, and SFG75 is in Kansas! Neato.
:cool:

:D
 
pontalba said:
Maybe its because I am fairly new to book forums in general that I think this sooo cool. I'm down here on the northshore of Lake Pontchartrain, Peder is in NYC, StillILearn way over there in California, and SFG75 is in Kansas! Neato.

:cool:

:D
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What did HH have to say about your states? ;)
 
StillILearn said:
What did HH have to say about your states? ;)
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He did mention Bourbon Street in New Orleans, and some ante-bellum homes with iron-trellis balconies....etc. p.156
 
StillILearn said:
I believe maybe we won his last defense attorney over. Or scared him off! :D
:rolleyes:
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StillILearn,
No, not really. I've just been hoping to deter the Prosecution from presenting a case, just so we wouldn't have to unleash a totally bloodcurdling eyewatering fantastically demolishing defense that will not only spring the accused but also have all the people in the forum chipping in for a whole year to pay damages for bothering him.
So what's your best shot? :confused:
Dare Ya' :)

Or of course we'll settle for not guilty and no payment, and save a lot of effort. :D :D

Peder
 
SFG75 said:
Was it absolutely necessary for her to ask H.H. to carry her upstairs for another tryst? :confused: Was he demanding anything of her at the time?
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This took place after she'd run out and contacted Q by phone, HH found her and bought her a cherry coke. Returning home she attempted to get into his good graces in every way, even down to speaking French, as HH remarked "..Used French only when she was a very good little girl." p.207
It was when they arrived home soaked to the skin, she asked him to carry her upstairs. And yes, this was "manipulative Lo". She was planning her escape.

You know it really took some nerve to follow a plan like that. Now was the plan conceived by Lolita? Or Quilty? No matter who planned it, she had to follow it without raising Humbert's suspicions.
 
Pontalba,
I am just sitting here, quietly admiring your wonderful post on one of the more unusual statements in the book. Beautiful explanation! And now I also really see what you mean by 'manipulative!' :eek:
Peder
 
Peder said:
StillILearn,
No, not really. I've just been hoping to deter the Prosecution from presenting a case, just so we wouldn't have to unleash a totally bloodcurdling eyewatering fantastically demolishing defense that will not only spring the accused but also have all the people in the forum chipping in for a whole year to pay damages for bothering him.
So what's your best shot? :confused:
Dare Ya' :)

Or of course we'll settle for not guilty and no payment, and save a lot of effort. :D :D

Peder
Click to expand...

A "totally bloodcurdling eyewatering fantastically demolishing" defense is it to be? Hm. We'll see about that! :cool:
 
Peder said:
Pontalba,
I am just sitting here, quietly admiring your wonderful post on one of the more unusual statements in the book. Beautiful explanation! And now I also really see what you mean by 'manipulative!' :eek:
Peder
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Oh fiddle dee dee!

I've always had a sort of grudging admiration for women like that. I on the other hand, am more like a Mack Truck that barrels straight thru the the standing traffic. Not that the manipulation is admirable, its just the beauty of execution that I admire. Sort of like a general deploying troops. Just look how Lolita, at such a young age was able to pull that off with the sublety demanded.
 
California

"A winery in California, with a church built in the shape of a wine barrel. Death Valley. Scotty's Castle. Works of Art collected by one Rogers over a period of years. The ugly villas of handsome actresses. R.L. Stevenson's footprint on an extinct volcano. Mission Dolores: good title for a book. Surf-carved sandstone festoons. A man having a lavish epileptic fit on the ground in Russian Gulch State Park."


:D
 
So, pontalba, what facts do we have to offer to the court on behalf of this orphaned, kidnapped, raped and terorized child? Aside from the irrefutable fact that she was twelve years old at the time of her abduction, I mean?

:rolleyes:
 
Really, StillILearn! don't be so understated! :cool:
There is, unfortunately a tendency to blame the victim. No, not by me, but I am speaking 'in general'. You hear, well, if they had done this, or that, or whatever the terrible Mcwhatever could have been avoided. There was a lot that Lolita could have done..........had she had the experience, and not only 12 years old. OTOH, if she'd been that experienced, Humbert would not have been interested in her, and it would've been a moot point. Note that at 14, she did in fact manage to manipulate and worm her way out of Humbert's clutches. From the frying pan into the fire........but note also, she didn't stay long in said fire (Quilty's Clutches). This proves that she was not some tartish, young woman of loose morals. So, all in all we must accept and fully endorse the Fact that Lolita needs no defending in this case, as she is the innocent victim and certainly not on trial. I wouldn't want this court to be like some real world courts that put the victim on trial!:eek:
 
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