Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

[Peder]

I thought about "Pale Fire" as well. I've never been much on poetry, but the one in Lolita is heartwrenching in its own way.......

Pontalba,
I've come to appreciate some poetry, mainly poems I can understand, like that one. Between that poem and your earlier post they are quite a bit of new evidence arguing in the direction of a genuinely reformed Humbert. I wonder if Madam Procecutor can hear us whispering.

Peder

 

[pontalba]

Peder
I doubt it, as I sense that Madam Prosceutor is at present in a parallel universe called......the real(ish) world and therefore is incommunicado

I have heard tales of that strange and terrible place, and I fear for her.

Regarding The Grey Lady, I saw pieces of the forum you mention, kinda died on the vine in spite of some parties over there lobbying for "Pale Fire" every month.

 

[pontalba]

In the paragraph above, when HH refers to Lolita as "my monkey", I flashed on an image of "a monkey on his back."
I honestly believe we could do this type of analysis with practically every paragraph in the book without coming up empty-handed.

Either VN or Humbert certainly seem to have a fetish for monkeys.....where I am not sure , however there is one point that HH is (ewwww) kissing Lolita's long monkeyish toes. Since I don't have a 10 foot pole, I'll stay waaayyy away from that one.

Oh, oh....!! Just remembered about the story of the ape drawing the bars that was the seed for "Lolita"!! That's why!! OY!

Pontalba runs and hides giggling madly................

 

[Peder]

Either VN or Humbert certainly seem to have a fetish for monkeys.....where I am not sure , however there is one point that HH is (ewwww) kissing Lolita's long monkeyish toes. Since I don't have a 10 foot pole, I'll stay waaayyy away from that one.

Oh, oh....!! Just remembered about the story of the ape drawing the bars that was the seed for "Lolita"!! That's why!! OY!

Pontalba runs and hides giggling madly................

Pontalba,

Yes, and as I recall, her little monkey paw slid down into his hand when she joined HH and Charlotte in the car on the shopping trip. And the two of them behaving like two teenagers getting away with handholding, now that I think of it. He a grownup man behaving like a teenager, and she a little kid behaving like teenager. Both of them nuts!

Inspiration!
VN is butterflies, so monkeys must be Humbert. tee hee.

And since you mention it, that caged-monkey scene always sounds like the most far-fetched inspiration for Lolita that I can imagine. Not that it wasn't, but why not King Kong or Planet of the Apes or some story more like that? I know, I know, because he is a genius!

My silliness is going up,
Better get into bed pretty soon.

Peder

 

[StillILearn]

I have heard tales of that strange and terrible place, and I fear for her.

I was picking up gaggles of giggling girls and driving them to Baskin and Robbins.

Pontalba runs and hides giggling madly................

You two are having way too much fun around here.

And it also reminds me of Jown Baez' "Diamonds and Rust." I can hear her mournful voice singing it now.

This unexpected allusion caused an unexpected frisson when I read it.

Welll, I've alllready paid ...

And finally, free association made me come up with:

"good girl, red hair, handsome daddums clipped mustache"

Little Orphan Annie?

 

[StillILearn]

Have we driven all the sane folks away?

 

[pontalba]

Have we driven all the sane folks away?

I'm not nuts, its everybody else in the world thats crazy....

I was picking up gaggles of giggling girls and driving them to Baskin and Robbins.

aaarrrggggghhhhh!!! My worst fears were realized.

Little Orphan Annie?

Right you are matey..

You two are having way too much fun around here.

Oh fiddle de de, let them eat cake. Preferably angel food cake...

 

[pontalba]

Pontalba,

And the two of them behaving like two teenagers getting away with handholding, now that I think of it. He a grownup man behaving like a teenager, and she a little kid behaving like teenager. Both of them nuts!



Peder

Yes indeedy...infatuation.......
Peder You've nicked onto the whole package!!
p.39:

The twenty-five years I had lived since then tapered to a palpitating point, and vanished.

Our dear Humbert was regressed back to Annabel.........he was so traumatized by Annabel's death, and had been looking for the replacement since then.
Everyone likes a certain "type". Body type, hair color, etc. Humbert's "type" had been frozen in time. He never got beyond Annabel.

 

[pontalba]

Well, I know that I'd put that theory forth before, but when you (Peder) said:

And the two of them behaving like two teenagers getting away with handholding, now that I think of it. He a grownup man behaving like a teenager, and she a little kid behaving like teenager.

It just clicked totally. He was a (almost) teenager again, that same shy kid that froze at the opportune time. He even says on that same p. 39 that:

...while I passed by her in my adult disguise...

Hey, VN's own words.

The whole paragraph shouts his regression.

 

[Peder]

Have we driven all the sane folks away?

Hi StillILearn
Very glad you came back here in the interesting world! If you keep feeding those gaggles B&R ice cream, pretty soon you are going to have two gaggles where once there was only one. That's a well known fact!

I sure hope we haven't driven all the sane ones away. It's getting very hard these days ro find replacement sanes. I was thinking of laying out some food tomorrow to at least entice the squirrels and chipmunks back. When the sun comes back up.

And I hope you have been noticing all the great nuggets that Pontalba has been digging up which are making HH a more human sounding person. I was wondering what you thought of him now. (Measuring your sanity, here tee hee) Still black, black?! Worth any lenience in sentencing?

That Joan Baez mention was a calculated risk, since not everybody likes all of her. But to me her voice and songs are second to no one and you found the right word. Frisson is definitely my reaction when I hear her sing. She was big in our house when the girls were growing up, and when I read the Humbert poem her voice just re-appeared after many years.

Odd that reading Lolita can turn into an exercise in nostalgia after getting past all the other feelings and thoughts that it arouses! And, as Pontalba already said, you were right on the nail with Orphan Annie! Good going!

I'm going to try to find some figures on sales. Maybe a comparison with Gone With the Wind.

But now I'm not quite awake, and not quite asleep,
So I'm going to try to fix that,
Good to hear your voice
Peder

 

[StillILearn]

And, as Pontalba already said, you were right on the nail with Orphan Annie! Good going!

I am finding that all I have to do is to come along behind you and pontalba and repeat what you or she just said. That helps.

Still black, black?! Worth any lenience in sentencing?

Okay, okay, so I feel just the tiniest litle bit sorry for him now. And since he's dead, I guess I can stop shrieking, "Lynch him!"

HH was a fourteen year-old in a grown man's body.

I'm was trying to think what to add to that last sentence, but maybe I'll just sit with it for a while.

 

[pontalba]

Lolita's older brother

What if any ramifications would Lolita's older brother have had on events described in HH's little diary had he lived?

 

[steffee]

What does Lolita look like?

I went looking in the bookshop the other day, for Speak Memory (which wasn't there, only Pale Fire(?) was), and I saw a copy of Lolita with this cover...

View attachment aimages_eu_amazon_com_images_P_0141182539_01_LZZZZZZZ

And then I searched a bit, and found this cover...

View attachment aimages_eu_amazon_com_images_P_0140264078_02_LZZZZZZZ

I haven't seen any films of Lolita, but I found this on Amazon.



And this...



But in that last one, the plot blurb thingy on Amazon says Lolita was 14 when HH first met her.

And then there's another, by Steven Schiff...

I hope that doesn't slow this page but the reason I posted them is because I pictured Lolita as being a brunette, definitely and possibly even European-looking. I definitely don't picture her as a blonde, or quite as grown-up looking.

 

[pontalba]

Steffee! How marvelous to see all the images that have been projected of Lolita! Your own mental image is more correct though. HH describes her as : (p.39)

It was the same child--the same frail, honey-hued shoulders. the same silky supple bare back, the same chestnut head of hair.

And for you Peder a continuation of the monkey/ape saga... :

A polka-dotted black kerchief tied around her chest hid from my aging ape eyes, but not from the gaze of young memory.....

The only thing I can think Steffee is that Hollywood thinks that blondes have more fun!

Thanks for posting those pics!

 

[Peder]

I am finding that all I have to do is to come along behind you and pontalba and repeat what you or she just said. That helps.

StillILearn,
Oh fribbish! That's just not so, as you have already proven with your masterpiece post from the Ladies Room in the Courthouse. Which brings to mind the question, "Just what do yew do that you can write a post like that?" if you care to share.

That was no ordinary post!

HH was a fourteen year-old in a grown man's body.

I'm was trying to think what to add to that last sentence, but maybe I'll just sit with it for a while.

And now there ya' gone an' done it again!

I read your sentence and thought, "Just that? But .... but .... but...."

But not coming up with any way to really add to it, I realized "I like it. I really like it!" And you are right. Just let it sit there and it will become more and more perfect IMO.

Stunned again!
Peder

 

[pontalba]

StillILearn
Firstly I ditto what he said.

Secondly:

HH was a fourteen year-old in a grown man's body.

Poifect.

 

[Peder]

What does Lolita look like?

But in that last one, the plot blurb thingy on Amazon says Lolita was 14 when HH first met her.

I hope that doesn't slow this page but the reason I posted them is because I pictured Lolita as being a brunette, definitely and possibly even European-looking. I definitely don't picture her as a blonde, or quite as grown-up looking.

Wonderful,wonderful pics Steffee!

Maybe amazon didn't dare say she was only twelve when HH first met her, or maybe they were in Freudian rejection and refused to believe their ears, not thinking such a thing possible. Or maybe I'm just plain wrong, and confusing her age with Charlotte's checklist on her twelfth birthday, now that I think of it. Gotta turn those pages again. But not as grown up looking as those pictures would be hard to come by, if they wanted to stay above legal age to avoid difficulties in marketing. I don't think they wanted to push the age issue too much. The works were already skirting the edge. But just OMO.

Funny you say brunette, yes, because I was startled to read that her hair was auburn. And long (shoulder length?), and turned up, didn't sound like the hairdo for a "fast little article" either. More like achoir member. So I was cheerfully happier with my own sparse image, which probably had her blonder with a sleeker and shorter more sophisticated 'up' hair style. Maybe quite like Melanie Griffith or your first picture. "Long' and slender like the second picture is an interesting thought, but Kubrick's Sue Lyons is way too much, especially alongside the others. Nothing mysterious there.

Plus I just came across a cover picture which I'll go looking for a link to. It also shows her tallish and skinny, but with brown hair. I guess I would say that, no matter what HH was seeing when he saw nymphets, the cover designers sure can pick 'em to make nice looking and intriguing covers.

Until I saw your pictures my most lingering image was of her standing in the doorway at her last parting from Humbert. And I don't remember which movie that was from. But by that point she was quite plain and dressed in a faded pale blue smock.

Picture is worth a thousand words!
And your collection is wonderful,
Peder

 

[Peder]

What if any ramifications would Lolita's older brother have had on events described in HH's little diary had he lived?

Pontalba,
Hm, hm, hm. That's going to take some head scratching!
I don't have any older, or younger, brothers or sisters, so I am completely at sea, and I can't even recall reading any books with that relationship explored.

But I ended up thinking of my own children. Two older daughters and two younger sons, which however, is still the reverse of what you are asking about. But among my four I have always been quite surprised that they are each other's best friends, after reading all the stuff about sibling rivalry and so on.

And they each seem to have their favorite brother or sister, the older ones of each relating best to each other, and then the younger ones likewise (and all better to each other than to their parents, I have to add ) It has been fascinating!

So to attempt an answer to your question, I would guess that an older brother, or any brother, would have provided her with more of a feeling of family and probaly have given her a playmate and friend, and protector (!), through all the years of her childhood and, therefore, stabilized her interests to a more age-appropriate level. Even if Charlotte showed no interest in them, they would have been each other's friends and stuck together.

I can't even begin to imagine what would have happened in our household if one of my daughters of tender age (there's a quaint phrase! ) started going out with an older man, or one of my sons with an older woman. The reaction would probably be so bad that we would never hear about it in the first place! And I also guess their siblings would be confided in first, before their parents. Even now they have their lives with each other that we don't hear much at all about. And without a doubt every family is different!

So, short answer, the events would never have happened IMO.

No book, no forum, no question, no answer,
Not always right, but never in doubt
Peder

 

[Peder]

And now the news of the day!

It has come to my attention -- by staring hard at the bookshelves down at Borders -- that there is another book by Nabokov:

"The Enchanter is the Ur-Lolita, the precursor to Nabokov's classic novel. At once hilarious and chilling, it tells the story of an outwardly respectable man and his fatal obsession with certain pre-pubescent girls, whose coltish grace and subconscious coquetry reveal, to his mind, a special bud on the verge of bloom."

I opened it to browse it and the first sentence I saw, someplace in the middle was

"The girl arrived two days before the wedding, cheeks aglow and wearing an unbuttoned blue coat......"

I don't know which girl, or which wedding, but that cheeks aglow doesn't sound good

Needless to say I now own the book, despite my resolve to not buy any more books (today ) and already having used my 30% off coupon. So now I am absolutely dieing of incredible curiosity, as I go off to do some real world things, like pay bills. And it is only 109 pages; it will go fast!

CU all Later,
Peder

 

[Kenny Shovel]

I've meant for a while to post a quick recommendation that you read 'The Enchanter', it's supposed to be a kind of first attempt at the subject that Nabakov thought for years he'd lost.

I can't compare the two myself as I haven't read Lolita yet, and before you try and get me too Peder I still have 40+ books unread on my shelves, and if I'm going to break my 'Read them before buying more' resolution it'd be for Ibsen or no one at the mo...

Keep up the good work in here, it's interesting...

K-S