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Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

Ah. Thank you, fellas. :)

(I really do have to give you both full points for so courageously tackling this very sensitive subject while in the company of folks who presumably were girls of the age under discussion at one time, and who therefore might be expected to be keeping an eagle, if not a critical, eye on you.) :D
 
Breaca said:
I may be viewing this in a rather simplistic fashion, but I cannot deter the thought running through my head that the picture we have of Lo is through the eyes of HH only. As I sit and ponder over VNs novel, I cannot help but wonder how a 'normal' man would see little Haze - would she still be Lolita or Delores (your average 12 year old).


Good question, breaca. We have a couple of normal (and courageous) men right here before us. If we females all promise to hold our fire until they have had an opportunity to express themselves fully, maye they will trust us with their own forthright and honest opinions on the subject?
 
StillILearn Oh yes indeedy. I've been thinking back to my days in the sun - those blissful youthful days. And I can recall being a little flirtatious but thankfully no-one pursued my flights of fantasy. Although I think I'd have run a mile or at least run to my mom's apron strings crying 'foul'.;) And I've often found myself smiling indulgently when I see youngsters flirting with my partner. He takes it in his stride but I have noticed the very wide berth he gives them if they get a little too flirty - and then there's my eagle and knowing eye on them too.:D
 
StillILearn Definitely would be interesting to get a 'normal' male perspective. School girl images are flaunted every day that you wonder if it's a normal male fantasy to have some virginal yet come-hither school girl come play with them.
 
Breaca said:
StillILearn Definitely would be interesting to get a 'normal' male perspective. School girl images are flaunted every day that you wonder if it's a normal male fantasy to have some virginal yet come-hither school girl come play with them.
To all, and for the record,
Teenagers call me "sir," and if you don't think that calls one back to reality you are mistaken! And some even hold the door for me. :( :(
Oh the indignities one has to suffer! :)
And with that I'll quickly flee ground zero here.
Peder
 
Breaca said:
StillILearn Definitely would be interesting to get a 'normal' male perspective. School girl images are flaunted every day that you wonder if it's a normal male fantasy to have some virginal yet come-hither school girl come play with them.

Yes, that is an image that is true to a certain extent. Perhaps that is why there is such an emphasis on looking younger and why people invest so much money in to their looks. You have movies where an older man has a mid-life crisis and falls for his daughters friend and does things like work out again and buy the car he always wanted. That is also the reason why Aerosmith made a video about "bad" private school girls leaving th school and having fun. I just can't find a reason why this statement isn't true. Speaking from experience as a guy, I doubt any man gets *revved up* so to speak, by a thick ankled, ever growing horizontally, irritable, nagging, old hag. Yes, men just hate seeing a thin, attractive, bubbly-blonde with attractive features. It makes me sick just thinking about it.:p (i.e.-begs the ladies to remember the Jeff Foxworthy skit about the wife interrogating him about Sigorney Weaver)

Peder-LOL. I was 24 when I was first called "Sir." I about had an existential crisis of sorts.
 
pontalba said:
The bit about Humbert attempting to show how "normal" pedophilia was in Ancient Rome and Oriental cultures to excuse himself for his behavior was so twisted and typically "you made me do it'......or "everyone else does it.....

And yet when he went on in the book about it, he made it all sound perfectly normal. IOW, whats the matter with you that you don't believe me? Oy. Or we could even equate it to a rapist saying, well, look at how she's dressed! She asked for it. aaarrrggghhhhh............

Good is bad, and bad is good......:(

Sorry for being unclear last night y'all, I was tired beyond reason. So.
What I meant to do was draw attention to the part in SFG's article that spoke about Humbert attempting to make everything Lolita's fault. And I at least fell for it to some extent, especially at first. HH portrayed her as an agressive abnormally sexual being, when in fact, it was HH that was totally abnormal. Of course his abnormality was quite plain all along, but he tried to color her with the same brush. And then attempted to make his behavior ok by talking about the Roman and Oriental cultures I mentioned above.

I love the way VN brought in Kinsey's findings...but I honestly don't see how people in that time frame could have thought women were not sexual beings! I was a young child in the 50's, so I can't really know how adults felt then, but what a Puritanical idiotic outlook! And I have to think that is a superficial outlook as well. I can hardly imagine real down to earth people thought that way.

I suppose I was a late bloomer, I don't remember doing the flirting at such an early age, I was probably 16 or so before I discovered real flirting. Partially I would have to say because I went to an all girls public highschool, remember this is the 60's and the school districts here seperated the sexes when intergration was enforced here. Stupid. And destructive in the end. Plus I was always pretty bookish, even nerdy. :) I have to think thats why I found Lolita's early behavior so shocking.
 
Peder
Hah! That was a mind blowing event when a young person in their 20's called me Ma'am! But by that time I was in my late 40's, I was fortunate in not looking my age for a long time. I looked very much the same from the age of 16 thru 40ish. :)
 
pontalba said:
I love the way VN brought in Kinsey's findings...but I honestly don't see how people in that time frame could have thought women were not sexual beings! I was a young child in the 50's, so I can't really know how adults felt then, but what a Puritanical idiotic outlook! And I have to think that is a superficial outlook as well. I can hardly imagine real down to earth people thought that way.
Pontalba
What a vast topic!
The question "What do men fantasize?" has to be analogous to Freud's famous question about women, "What do women want?" For the male half of that I suppose the truest thing one can say is that men have always looked at women, and it goes from there. :rolleyes:
The best historical glimpse I know of the matter is the wonderful quasi-documentary 1981 film put together by Warren Beatty called "Reds."

Here's the link and I hope I did that right. In any event, it has many famous Americans from the era of the 1917 Russian Revolution, talking in real life about attitudes as far back as those times. It features the open and passionate affair between feminist Louise Bryant and journalist John Reed, and has the memorable comment from a crusty and actual Henry Miller saying (very approximately) "Oh, yeah!! We thought about sex all the time!" It is a wonderful film, appropriately enough compared to GWTW in the IMDB, but that is a little off-topic.

At the moment I am trying to find the two or three sentences that best distill Goldman's argument from SFG's article, which is a wonderful article in its own riight about Lolita (and you will notice sliding right by any furher comments about male fantasy :) )
Peder
 
At the moment I am trying to find the two or three sentences that best distill Goldman's argument from SFG's article, which is a wonderful article in its own riight about Lolita (and you will notice sliding right by any furher comments about male fantasy )
Peder

You'll have a rough time finding only two or three! It took several readings, but its a great article.

And you guys should not feel like the Lone Ranger fantasy wise. :rolleyes: ;) :D If anything women's are richer. IMHO.

Now I have to rent Reds.:)
 
Nabokov mirrors exactly what a man is thinking, perhaps that is why the feminists hated VN for how he created H.H. In him, they saw every man!. His depiction of not really caring for Big Haze(sounds like a linebacker's nickname for the Giants or something) embodies that to a "t" At the same time, I don't really see how a 12 year old is the model of attraction any man. I think that's where the analogy falls flat. However, if Lo was 18 or 19, then you get into a more realistic, and in society-a more common occurance.
 
re Eric Goldman article on Normalcy and Deviance in Lolita

It turns out that Eric Goldman is as wordy as I am, so there are not just a few sentences that can capture the entire range of his thoughts. So I'll concentrate on those most relevant to our discussion here, which really does do injustice to a brilliantly reasoned article and interpretation.

In very short, Lolita is a normal child and Humbert is the deviant, and "Lolita poses the question of how a woman's sexual awakening should be viewed." But there is also a further thought about Humbert relevant to our discussion.

Humbert
Goldman sees Humbert as casting Lolita in the role of Eve in a mythic Garden of Eden because that places her in the role of a fallen woman, or temptress, and him as the innocent target of her temptation. Moreover, after he claims he is seduced by her, he continues to view himself as innocent because she is the deviant and perverted one.

Lolita
In the Introducory paragraphs Goldman says
It is important to look also at the ways she transcends the myth Humbert writes for her and, in doing so, becomes less an avatar of an archetypal figure and more of a unique modern woman.
Goldman alleges, and proves, that Nabokov (not Humbert) presents the alterntive Kinseyan view that Lolita is a normally developing girl, at least until Humbert thwarts and deflects her normal sexual growth. Goldman points for proof to the scene (among others) that I originally regarded as one of the more heavily satiric in the whole novel, the meeting between Head Mistress Pratt of the Beardsley School and Humbert. Here we have Goldman speaking:
Mythic and scientific aspects of Lolita's sexuality clash in Pratt's conference with Humbert about Lolita's partcipation in the school play, entitled The Enchanted Hunters. She believes the play might help Lolita mature normally. "What worries me," she tells Humbert, ""is that both teachers and schoolmates find Dolly antagonistic, dissatisfied, cagey -- and everybody wonders why you are so firmly opposed to all the natural recreations of a normal child. Humbert bristles at this and replies, wryly, "Do you mean sex play?" Pratt retorts that she is referring to Lolita's participation in an actual play, not sex play. What ensues is an interpretive battle in which Humbert tries to make Lolita's participation in the play perverse while Pratt tries to establish this as part of normal (and sexual) maturation.....Humbert, however, interprets Lolita's sex play and experimentation as signs of a monumental and irreversible fall that justifies his own truly perverse exploitation of her."
Furthermore
"At the novel's close, she is the quintessential American housewife, and Humbert's disappointment is palpable.....Lolita's supposed deviance leads not to a squalid life of pornography, prostitution or exploitation but, ironically enough, to a normal life as housewife in suburban America. Such a twist, a deviation from the expected corruption or downfall of the deviant woman, was more than enough to disturb American audiences [of the 1950's]"
Humbert again
And finally, a different thought that relates to how we view Humbert at the end.
While Lolita outgrows her role as Humbert's fallen woman, his Eve who has seduced a "helpless" Adam, Humbert's view of her does not change. He ... still casts her in the same mythic context he has imposed on her from the start. He reflects, "there was within her a garden and a twilight, and a palace gate -- dim and adorable regions which happened to be lucidly and absolutely forbidden to me.......[which are] Humbert's conscious recreation of Eden and the symbolic entrapment of Lolita within this myth..."
That latter is disappointing for me especially to hear, for I viewed it otherwise (as an end to his solipsism) but, I guess, in the game of Lolita interpretaion, you win some and you lose some.

But you should read the whole article,
Peder
 
pontalba said:
Now I have to rent Reds.:)
Pontalba,
It is a wonderful view of many of the real people who were involved in an actual slice of American history. It is not often one can see the actual historical people.
Peder
 
StillILearn said:
Is it saying that these Lolita-style nymphets actually do exist in America today?
StillILearn,
Second answer, in the light of now having read the full article.
No, the article is not saying that.
IMO it supports the idea that there are no nymphets, but there are molesters.
Peder
 
IMO it supports the idea that there are no nymphets, but there are molesters.
Peder

And is that the consensus of this forum?

We know molesters unfortunately exist. But in spite of that do nymphets actually exist as well? Inquiring Minds wonder..........

:confused:
 
pontalba said:
And is that the consensus of this forum?

We know molesters unfortunately exist. But in spite of that do nymphets actually exist as well? Inquiring Minds wonder..........

:confused:

If the article I posted is accurate, the answer is roughly-no. Lolita was undergoing the "normal" process of well....being human before H.H. saw these flirty inclinations and assigned it an abnormal meaning, thereby invalidating her sexuality, but validating his own.
 
pontalba said:
Peder
Hah! That was a mind blowing event when a young person in their 20's called me Ma'am! But by that time I was in my late 40's, I was fortunate in not looking my age for a long time. I looked very much the same from the age of 16 thru 40ish. :)

Hah! I can remember being in my 30s and having a 19 year old telling me that when she was old.... When I asked her 'and how old would that be' she nonchalently told 'oh when I'm in my 30s' (cough/splutter). I must be positively ancient now. On the other hand I can also remember being asked for ID at a bar. I was 26 and ordering a cola.:D And as I didn't have my ID on me I had to go fetch my husband to buy me a drink:eek:
 
SFG75 said:
If the article I posted is accurate, the answer is roughly-no. Lolita was undergoing the "normal" process of well....being human before H.H. saw these flirty inclinations and assigned it an abnormal meaning, thereby invalidating her sexuality, but validating his own.

I'm with you on this. Nymphets only exist to those 'who are in the know'. And that's straight from Humbert's mouth. There are many more comments made to suggest this too - 'unconscious herself of her fantastic power' etc. And, of course, we can't dismiss his disdain for grown women - no mention of their sexuality.
 
Breaca said:
I'm with you on this. Nymphets only exist to those 'who are in the know'. And that's straight from Humbert's mouth. There are many more comments made to suggest this too - 'unconscious herself of her fantastic power' etc. And, of course, we can't dismiss his disdain for grown women - no mention of their sexuality.

The idea that only a few can discern who the nymphets is a great way of blaming the victim in a way. It also excuses male sexual desires and sublimates it under, and blames, female sexuality as being deviant, as "deserving it" or "wanting it." In H.H.'s twisted world, he was oppressed by her, not vice-versa. Your comments really clear this up as that is what I was thinking, but was unable to put it as clearly as you did.
 
SFG75 said:
The idea that only a few can discern who the nymphets is a great way of blaming the victim in a way. It also excuses male sexual desires and sublimates it under, and blames, female sexuality as being deviant, as "deserving it" or "wanting it." In H.H.'s twisted world, he was oppressed by her, not vice-versa. Your comments really clear this up as that is what I was thinking, but was unable to put it as clearly as you did.

I basically agree with what the both of you are saying, but does that factor in the reality that some women (and men I suppose) sexually mature at an earlier age than others? Could that early maturation be what HH is claiming to be a sign of being a nymphet? And then HH takes that and blows it out of proportion.....
 
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