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William Faulkner: As I Lay Dying
- Thread starter veggiedog
- Start date
veggiedog
New Member
Hi Gem,
I apologize for being so late in replying this time.
Regarding the title, As I Lay Dying, I believe the words come from Odyssey by Homer. Agamemnon (sp?), after meeting Odysseus in the underworld, refers to his wife's murder and betrayal of him upon his return home after the Trojan War, although I may be incorrect in this. I will look up the exact line.
In a way, the Bundren's journey could also be considered an 'odyssey' of sorts (I am certain I have referred to it as such in this thread before). It seems that Faulkner tended to draw on the Greek classics. In Antigone, yes, that Greek tragedy in which everyone dies, the title character and her sister are on a mission to bury their brother Creon is Thebes, and attempt to do so repeatedly. Darl speaks of the fight between Jewel and Gillespie as a 'Greek frieze'. There are possibly many analogies between the Greek gods and the characters of the novel (whether intentional or unintentional) and other Greek lore. Interesting, isn't it? The novel is as tragic and ironic as Greek literature.
I will now pose another question: do you think that Darl is truly insane, and that his family's merciless betrayal has pushed him over the edge, or that he is only partially insane or not insane at all? What makes you think that? My class voted that he was, indeed, mad, several months ago, but I am not quite convinced that Darl, the most coherent, straightforward character of them all, is so. He has been crushed by society after resisting it's pressure to conform. I wonder why nobody questions Jewel's or Dewey Dell's sanity, as they seem to be in even poorer mental states than Darl. I will give my analysis of Darl's final passage after you reply.
TTFN (ta-ta-for-now!)
Veggiedog
P.S. WARNING: MINI-RANT BELOW
I no longer like Jewel after his horrible betrayal of Darl. The same goes to Dewey Dell. Obviously neither of them truly thinks he is insane. They just want Darl out of the way, because he knows things and forces them to face things that they don't want to face. Anse merely wants to avoid a lawsuit (the idiot). Cash, while he seems to agree with the others, is at least questioning the decision, not so sure it was the right one. Vardaman is almost as lost as ever--he really doesn't understand the situation and what the family has put Darl through. Therefore, these characters will remain minimally likeable, in my regards
Of course, Darl is my favorite, and Addie is so pitiable, I find it impossible to hate her. Whitfield and Cora, however...well, I won't get into that
END OF MINI-RANT.
EDIT: Here is the line from Odyssey (I just looked it up online...too lazy to dig out my copy... ), in case you are interested in seeing it in its context, or have not read it before. See if it means anything to you...
I apologize for being so late in replying this time.
Regarding the title, As I Lay Dying, I believe the words come from Odyssey by Homer. Agamemnon (sp?), after meeting Odysseus in the underworld, refers to his wife's murder and betrayal of him upon his return home after the Trojan War, although I may be incorrect in this. I will look up the exact line.
In a way, the Bundren's journey could also be considered an 'odyssey' of sorts (I am certain I have referred to it as such in this thread before). It seems that Faulkner tended to draw on the Greek classics. In Antigone, yes, that Greek tragedy in which everyone dies, the title character and her sister are on a mission to bury their brother Creon is Thebes, and attempt to do so repeatedly. Darl speaks of the fight between Jewel and Gillespie as a 'Greek frieze'. There are possibly many analogies between the Greek gods and the characters of the novel (whether intentional or unintentional) and other Greek lore. Interesting, isn't it? The novel is as tragic and ironic as Greek literature.
I will now pose another question: do you think that Darl is truly insane, and that his family's merciless betrayal has pushed him over the edge, or that he is only partially insane or not insane at all? What makes you think that? My class voted that he was, indeed, mad, several months ago, but I am not quite convinced that Darl, the most coherent, straightforward character of them all, is so. He has been crushed by society after resisting it's pressure to conform. I wonder why nobody questions Jewel's or Dewey Dell's sanity, as they seem to be in even poorer mental states than Darl. I will give my analysis of Darl's final passage after you reply.
TTFN (ta-ta-for-now!)
Veggiedog
P.S. WARNING: MINI-RANT BELOW
I no longer like Jewel after his horrible betrayal of Darl. The same goes to Dewey Dell. Obviously neither of them truly thinks he is insane. They just want Darl out of the way, because he knows things and forces them to face things that they don't want to face. Anse merely wants to avoid a lawsuit (the idiot). Cash, while he seems to agree with the others, is at least questioning the decision, not so sure it was the right one. Vardaman is almost as lost as ever--he really doesn't understand the situation and what the family has put Darl through. Therefore, these characters will remain minimally likeable, in my regards
Of course, Darl is my favorite, and Addie is so pitiable, I find it impossible to hate her. Whitfield and Cora, however...well, I won't get into that
END OF MINI-RANT.
EDIT: Here is the line from Odyssey (I just looked it up online...too lazy to dig out my copy...
), in case you are interested in seeing it in its context, or have not read it before. See if it means anything to you...
veggiedog
New Member
Thanks for the link Gem!
I'll have to reread Homer's Odyssey...I barely remember it, sadly.
What do you think the connection is between As I Lay Dying and the quotation? When I first read the title (before I even opened the book, obviously) I assumed it to be a novel written in first person about the narrator dying slowly throughout the book. But the only character who physically dies, Addie, is dead throughout most of the book. The story is narrated by a series of characters. They are not all dying, so to speak.
The title could have a figurative meaning, as in, not actually dying physically, but degenerating mentally, emotionally, spiritually, socially, or whatever the last type of health was that I learned about last semester in health class. So really, the title could refer to Addie, who was physically dying. It could also refer to Darl, the main narrator, and one of the only reliable ones, mentally and emotionally dying--while the other characters eventually overcome their grief over the death, Darl seems to have become more and more distressed as the novel progressed. The fact that he was betrayed by his own family, the people who are supposed to love and stand up for him, is very tragic, just as is Clytemnestra's betrayal of Agamemnon. Or perhaps the title refers to no one at all and Faulkner thought it just sounded neat
, or it refers society in general. What are your opinions?
I have to take the ACT tomorrow and will post my opinions about Darl's last passage after that, because I was particularly interested in it.
TTFN!
Veggiedog
I'll have to reread Homer's Odyssey...I barely remember it, sadly.
What do you think the connection is between As I Lay Dying and the quotation? When I first read the title (before I even opened the book, obviously) I assumed it to be a novel written in first person about the narrator dying slowly throughout the book. But the only character who physically dies, Addie, is dead throughout most of the book. The story is narrated by a series of characters. They are not all dying, so to speak.
The title could have a figurative meaning, as in, not actually dying physically, but degenerating mentally, emotionally, spiritually, socially, or whatever the last type of health was that I learned about last semester in health class. So really, the title could refer to Addie, who was physically dying. It could also refer to Darl, the main narrator, and one of the only reliable ones, mentally and emotionally dying--while the other characters eventually overcome their grief over the death, Darl seems to have become more and more distressed as the novel progressed. The fact that he was betrayed by his own family, the people who are supposed to love and stand up for him, is very tragic, just as is Clytemnestra's betrayal of Agamemnon. Or perhaps the title refers to no one at all and Faulkner thought it just sounded neat
, or it refers society in general. What are your opinions?I have to take the ACT tomorrow
and will post my opinions about Darl's last passage after that, because I was particularly interested in it.TTFN!
Veggiedog
Gem
kickbox
Hello Veggie,
You're going to have to go easy on me today. My pounding headache has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with last nights revelries..er..i mean celebrations... It was the lychees yesterday that did it. Yes siree it was those darn lychees. Plus the woman behind me at the checkout in Waitrose this morning didn't help by trying to steal my chocolate. Right okay sorry, on topic now.
I think i mentioned earlier, i have a soft spot for Darl. I don't think he was mad. Just deliberately misunderstood by people. His passages were the most analytical and gave the most insights. He was the only one who saw the pointlessness of the the journey. And perhaps he realised that no amount of togetherness would bring the family really together. I have located my copy of the book, and i'm gonna go sit out in the sun and start to re read it. Make sure i'm not remembering things wrong. Perhaps my perception will change after reading it again.
As to the title, as you said Addie is already dead for most of the book so does the title refer to her? Well, i remember when i first read it, I didn't get the Odyssey link, and i thought that the title referred to Addie - to her whole life in fact - as in she was just 'lying there' waiting to die - she didn't take action to improve her life in anyway, and despite her words/actions theory she herself was only words. Did she give up too easily with life and become too comfortable with her disatisfaction?
As you said the characters are not dying, but in a way the family as one is dying - Darl off in the asylum, and whatsisname remarrying and so on.
I'll come back to the Odyssey thing later.
I have no idea what the ACT is but Good Luck with it.
You're going to have to go easy on me today. My pounding headache has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with last nights revelries..er..i mean celebrations... It was the lychees yesterday that did it. Yes siree it was those darn lychees. Plus the woman behind me at the checkout in Waitrose this morning didn't help by trying to steal my chocolate.
Right okay sorry, on topic now.I think i mentioned earlier, i have a soft spot for Darl. I don't think he was mad. Just deliberately misunderstood by people. His passages were the most analytical and gave the most insights. He was the only one who saw the pointlessness of the the journey. And perhaps he realised that no amount of togetherness would bring the family really together. I have located my copy of the book, and i'm gonna go sit out in the sun and start to re read it. Make sure i'm not remembering things wrong. Perhaps my perception will change after reading it again.
As to the title, as you said Addie is already dead for most of the book so does the title refer to her? Well, i remember when i first read it, I didn't get the Odyssey link, and i thought that the title referred to Addie - to her whole life in fact - as in she was just 'lying there' waiting to die - she didn't take action to improve her life in anyway, and despite her words/actions theory she herself was only words. Did she give up too easily with life and become too comfortable with her disatisfaction?
As you said the characters are not dying, but in a way the family as one is dying - Darl off in the asylum, and whatsisname remarrying and so on.
I'll come back to the Odyssey thing later.
I have no idea what the ACT is but Good Luck with it.
veggiedog
New Member
Gem said:Hello Veggie,
You're going to have to go easy on me today. My pounding headache has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with last nights revelries..er..i mean celebrations... It was the lychees yesterday that did it. Yes siree it was those darn lychees. Plus the woman behind me at the checkout in Waitrose this morning didn't help by trying to steal my chocolate.
Sure. Blame the innocent lychees
. Lychees do no evil, you ought to know that. But I hope you feel better soon.Gem said:
I am not convinced that Darl is mad either. If anything, he was perhaps the sanest of them all. Darl saw what was happening to his family, and he was the only one that felt its health outweighed all other motives for going to town, whether they be abortions, teeth, or trains. He was also the most straightforward, as I have stated before. I believe that he is simply devasted by his family's betrayal (particularly that of Cash, whom he had always felt closest to) as would anyone be. You see that his last moments with his family shows that he truly cares for those that turned against him: he defends Jewel, he insists that Cash gets taken to a doctor, etc.
Here is what I think of Darl's last chapter:
First of all, I am pretty sure he is not saying this aloud, even the parts in quotation. Some people may mistake his thinking/talking to himself as the ravings of a madman, but I think he is thinking to quickly, with many thoughts rushing into his head at once. He is thinking in run-on sentences, not unlike Dewey Dell and Vardaman in the earlier sections.
He describes himself in third-person, I believe, because he has lost his sense of 'identity' as he is no longer Darl, no longer a brother, no longer part of the Bundren family. He has been questioning existence and identity from the beginning, if you recall. It is as though he has become separated into two parts--one that is still the old Darl ('I'), and another inaccessible Darl, from whose head he is locked out ('Darl'). There are multiple parts/layers to Darl. I remember a while back Darl told Vardaman that he was not 'is' and Vardaman said something like 'But you are, Darl!' and Darl says something like 'I know, that's why I am not is. Are is too many for one woman to foal." I don't know if that has any connection or not, but this section reminded me of it.
He is still able to think and observe the way he always has, when he describes his escorts, for example. He asks himself if he is laughing at the fact that they are carrying pistols, as though they are arming themselves against a dangerous criminal.
Then comes a jumble of thoughts that I found more difficult. In the train compartment, one of the men sits next to him, the other across from him. He talks about the state's money, and how the men are 'riding' on it (using the state's money). He says it is 'incest', which I presume to mean that he feels the entire system is too inbred. He is being escorted by state officials in a state vehicle to a state institution to avoid a lawsuit that would have occured in a state court under state jurisdiction. Everything is too closely connected, tipping the scales of justice. Does that make sense to you?? He says the state's money has a 'face to each backside and backside to each face,' and I assumed he was referring to a coin, which has a heads side and a tails side. But a nickel has a face on both sidesm which doesn't really make sense to him. He talks about a spyglass he obtained while he served in France during WWI. He saw a woman and pig in it, and he knew what it was. I have no idea what that implies, except that maybe he knows what it is to have people turn their backs against him. The first time I read the passage, I interpreted the faces and the backs to mean that his own family cannot look him in the eye, or in the face (Anse is kind of 'hang-dog') and that they have turned their backs against him, but that doesn't make much sense.
In the next paragraph, it is hard to tell whether he can still see his family and what they are doing, or if he just knows them so well he can imagine what they are doing. Later though, Cash describes how he could see the train from where he was sitting, so I suppose Darl is again observing them. It is interesting to note that while the family spent days overcoming their grief of the death of Addie, no one seems to bat an eye at Darl's arrest, except maybe Cash.
In the last paragraph, Darl is thinking about his siblings see him. Even though some may consider him insane, Darl is still able to enter the minds of his siblings, imagining how they are feeling and knowing what is happening with them. The image he provides of himself in a cage in Jackson, peeking through the bars, foaming at the mouth, is a cliche image of a madman. Whether it be in Cujo or There Eyes Were Watching God, madness is represented by foaming. This is not actually happening to Darl, right?
I went flipping through the previous and following chapters, to find out what Darl was actually laughing at. I think the closest possibility probably came from Cash's chapter, in which Darl was arrested.
If you read on in the section, you'll see that Cash is not really convinced with his reasoning that it would be better for Darl to go...Cash is really the only one who questions the matter, and reacts to Darl's leaving.
Gem said:
That's an interesting idea. I hadn't thought about that.
Gem said:
Yes, that was what I was trying to communicate--the family unit as a whole, along with each of the individuals, is 'dying' in a way. Now I see that I didn't do a very good job of explaining, but you seem to understand what I was getting at. Now I think that your meaning above makes more literal sense than mine. Mine doesn't seem to quite click to me...
Gem said:I have no idea what the ACT is but Good Luck with it.
Lol, Gem. The ACT is a college admission test. I don't feel like I did very well, sadly
, but I can always take it again (even if it means sitting for four hours in an unventilated room with two dozen sweating people ) so no panicking here! EDIT: Here is my favorite quote in the book, just for fun. It was said by Peabody, when treating Cash for his leg:
That was great, wasn't it ?
I wonder why Darl poured the cement on Cash's leg. You would think he would have the sense not to, unless he was trying to prove a point
Gem
kickbox
Hello Veggie,
Your analysis seems to tally with my thoughts but I haven't yet reread Darl's last chapter, so i'm just going by memory. I'll try and quickly finish it now so that I can post something a little bit more constructive.
Your comments on the family unit 'dying' made complete sense i got what you were saying.
If they hadn't poured the cement on the leg then Cash would likely have bled to death. The cement would make the leg worse - but Cash would stay alive, - although the leg wouldn't really ever recover properly. It's almost like a summary of the family really.
When I started rereading the book the other day, I came across a few things that I hadn't remembered. At the start, when Darl and Jewel are leaving, Darl knows that his mother is going to die before they get back. He says as much to his sister, and when she asks why are you taking Jewel then? He replies that he needs help unloading ..or something along those lines. So why did Darl take Jewel, knowing he was their mother's favourite? Was it because he didn't want Addie to go through the pain of saying goodbye or were his intentions more malicious? He had after all always been the unwanted child and Jewel the favourite - was this his revenge???
Aah, quit being modest, i'm sure you did well. Two dozen sweating people - it's almost like their preparing you for college life - ie. the parties and clubs
Your analysis seems to tally with my thoughts but I haven't yet reread Darl's last chapter, so i'm just going by memory. I'll try and quickly finish it now so that I can post something a little bit more constructive.
Your comments on the family unit 'dying' made complete sense i got what you were saying.
If they hadn't poured the cement on the leg then Cash would likely have bled to death. The cement would make the leg worse - but Cash would stay alive, - although the leg wouldn't really ever recover properly. It's almost like a summary of the family really.
When I started rereading the book the other day, I came across a few things that I hadn't remembered. At the start, when Darl and Jewel are leaving, Darl knows that his mother is going to die before they get back. He says as much to his sister, and when she asks why are you taking Jewel then? He replies that he needs help unloading ..or something along those lines. So why did Darl take Jewel, knowing he was their mother's favourite? Was it because he didn't want Addie to go through the pain of saying goodbye or were his intentions more malicious? He had after all always been the unwanted child and Jewel the favourite - was this his revenge???
Aah, quit being modest, i'm sure you did well. Two dozen sweating people - it's almost like their preparing you for college life - ie. the parties and clubs
veggiedog
New Member
Hi Gem,
Take your time. I'm not going anywhere
They should have at least put a cloth or something between his leg and the cement (after all, real casts aren't generally applied directly to the skin). But I won't question Darl's judgment on the matter, as he did say that they should take Cash directly to a doctor, but Anse refused
Why would Cash keep saying that his leg doesn't hurt when quite clearly it does? I understand that it's in his nature not to call attention to himself, but didn't he realize that he may have needed his foot amputated without medical treatment? Peabody told him so. I found the part where Jewel brought a horse doctor, who said that humans aren't very different from horses, quite amusing
I always thought that Darl was a little jealous of Jewel, and naturally so. If you remember in the first passage, pg. 3, Darl says that "Although I am fifteen feet ahead of [Jewel], anyone watching from the cottonhouse can see Jewel's frayed and broken straw hat a full head above my own." I don't know if I am reading too much into this, but it seems that Darl feels that even though he older and more intelligent than Jewel (fifteen feet ahead of him), others, Addie especially, still view Jewel as superior to him (both literally and figuratively a head above Darl). The one thing that Darl wants most is his mother's love, and Jewel has claimed it already. Futhermore, Darl is viewed queer by the others, when quite clearly he is the least queer of the entire family. Darl also constantly taunts Jewel about his horse and his father, both of which are touchy subjects. It is difficult to say whether Darl means to be cruel, or if he is just trying to save the entire family some grief. I believe that Darl purposely wanted to separate Jewel and Addie while Addie died out of some form of jealousy, Darl being the only absolutely unwanted of the Bundren children, and Jewel being Addie's favorite.
My English teacher gave us a long-term assignment a few weeks ago to write a short story in the style of Faulkner, 30-50 pages long. By the style of Faulkner, I mean the interior monologues, his odd way of circling around the point rather than directly stating it, and thinking straight from the minds of the characters and the way they would think. I think I will expand it and make it my summer project and maybe post the results here
TTFN
Veggiedog
Gem said:
Take your time. I'm not going anywhere
Gem said:
They should have at least put a cloth or something between his leg and the cement (after all, real casts aren't generally applied directly to the skin). But I won't question Darl's judgment on the matter, as he did say that they should take Cash directly to a doctor, but Anse refused
Why would Cash keep saying that his leg doesn't hurt when quite clearly it does? I understand that it's in his nature not to call attention to himself, but didn't he realize that he may have needed his foot amputated without medical treatment? Peabody told him so. I found the part where Jewel brought a horse doctor, who said that humans aren't very different from horses, quite amusing
Gem said:
I always thought that Darl was a little jealous of Jewel, and naturally so. If you remember in the first passage, pg. 3, Darl says that "Although I am fifteen feet ahead of [Jewel], anyone watching from the cottonhouse can see Jewel's frayed and broken straw hat a full head above my own." I don't know if I am reading too much into this, but it seems that Darl feels that even though he older and more intelligent than Jewel (fifteen feet ahead of him), others, Addie especially, still view Jewel as superior to him (both literally and figuratively a head above Darl). The one thing that Darl wants most is his mother's love, and Jewel has claimed it already. Futhermore, Darl is viewed queer by the others, when quite clearly he is the least queer of the entire family. Darl also constantly taunts Jewel about his horse and his father, both of which are touchy subjects. It is difficult to say whether Darl means to be cruel, or if he is just trying to save the entire family some grief. I believe that Darl purposely wanted to separate Jewel and Addie while Addie died out of some form of jealousy, Darl being the only absolutely unwanted of the Bundren children, and Jewel being Addie's favorite.
My English teacher gave us a long-term assignment a few weeks ago to write a short story in the style of Faulkner, 30-50 pages long. By the style of Faulkner, I mean the interior monologues, his odd way of circling around the point rather than directly stating it, and thinking straight from the minds of the characters and the way they would think. I think I will expand it and make it my summer project and maybe post the results here
TTFN
Veggiedog
Gem
kickbox
Hello Veggiedog,
I just finished Darls last passage. I hadn't remembered it to be quite that terrifying. What a sad last glimpse of Darl - alone in a cage, foaming at the mouth.
Yep, it's like, having been betrayed by his family he's ended up losing his sense of self. Darl has always been an outsider, and the way he refers to himself in the passage feels like he's now an outsider in his own mind.
I'm assuming that Darl burnt down the barn because he didn't want Addie to suffer more indignity. Jewel on the other hand was shouting "Kill Him" when they had Darl pinned down:
Cash's statement of "aint so much what a fellow does as how the majority of folks is looking at him when he does it.” Explains so much.
Darl laughing and repeating Vardamans thoughts - 'our brother Darl' etc. - do you think this is indicative of there being a history of mental illness in the family - Addie seemed to have some manic depressive tendancies, then Darl's own fate, and Vardaman too seems to be heading down that slippery slope.
I know, after Darl does that and saves Jewels life, they still do that to him
I'll look forward to reading it.
I just finished Darls last passage. I hadn't remembered it to be quite that terrifying. What a sad last glimpse of Darl - alone in a cage, foaming at the mouth.
Yep, it's like, having been betrayed by his family he's ended up losing his sense of self. Darl has always been an outsider, and the way he refers to himself in the passage feels like he's now an outsider in his own mind.
I'm assuming that Darl burnt down the barn because he didn't want Addie to suffer more indignity. Jewel on the other hand was shouting "Kill Him" when they had Darl pinned down:
Cash's statement of "aint so much what a fellow does as how the majority of folks is looking at him when he does it.” Explains so much.
Darl laughing and repeating Vardamans thoughts - 'our brother Darl' etc. - do you think this is indicative of there being a history of mental illness in the family - Addie seemed to have some manic depressive tendancies, then Darl's own fate, and Vardaman too seems to be heading down that slippery slope.
I know, after Darl does that and saves Jewels life, they still do that to him
I'll look forward to reading it.
veggiedog
New Member
Hola Gem,
Exactly. It's horrible to think that after doing so much for his family, and being the only sensible of any of them, Darl could be treated in such a way. I think that there were two main reasons that Jewel betrayed him:
Do think that Addie would have wanted Darl to cremate her for the sake of her honor, or do you think that she would have thought Jewel's actions were noble and chivalrous? Even though Darl cares deeply for his mother, Addie clearly does not care for him, and invests all of her love in Jewel. She says that Jewel will be her salvation. I am not entirely sure that Addie would have approved of Darl's actions. Why exactly does Addie love Jewel more than the others anyway, besides the fact that he is not a Bundren? Has he done anything to deserve such affection?
I also looked up the meanings of some of the names used in the book to see if Faulkner purposely chose them, and if they had any correlation to the personalities of the characters. Usually I couldn't find an exact match, especially when dealing with names like Vardaman so the parts in parentheses are the modification I had to make, but here's what I got:
Addie - joyful, kind
Dewey Dell - not a mainstream name, but is suspiciously close to 'secret shade'
Anse(l) - 'follows nobility'
Cash(lin) - vain
Darl(a/ene/ita) - dear one, loved one
Jewel - precious stone, joy
Varda/Varden - rose, from the green hill
Well, that didn't work out as well as I thought it would
Addie's father was the most optimistic guy in the world either, declaring that there was no purpose to life except to prepare to stay dead. Illnesses like this probably do run in the family. Darl and Vardaman appear to have milder forms, as of yet. Addie's was extreme to almost the point of suicide. Do you think that having such an illness affected the way that Darl and Vardaman reacted to Addie's death?
It was difficult for me to read. I hate the parts with betrayals and misunderstandings in books, and always have the urge to flip past them to the happy ending. Of course, there was no such happy ending in this case but I really find these sections so awkward and heavy. I know that this is the whole point of including such a section, but knowing that doesn't make it any easier to read!
Bewarned: I am as unschooled as it gets when it comes to writing. I have no talent whatsoever: every English teacher I have ever had has told me so, SAT essay scorers say that I have 'a tendency to ramble,' and I have now become resigned to it. Research papers, essays, term papers, I-search papers, etc. I can work with. Creative writing, I cannot. But I think I will have some fun with this one
Gem said:
Exactly. It's horrible to think that after doing so much for his family, and being the only sensible of any of them, Darl could be treated in such a way. I think that there were two main reasons that Jewel betrayed him:
- Darl forced Jewel to face issues (his parentage, esp.) that he didn't want to face or acknowledge
- Jewel thought that Darl was trying to destroy Addie while he himself was her savior. Darl was saving what remained of the family's dignity.
Do think that Addie would have wanted Darl to cremate her for the sake of her honor, or do you think that she would have thought Jewel's actions were noble and chivalrous? Even though Darl cares deeply for his mother, Addie clearly does not care for him, and invests all of her love in Jewel. She says that Jewel will be her salvation. I am not entirely sure that Addie would have approved of Darl's actions. Why exactly does Addie love Jewel more than the others anyway, besides the fact that he is not a Bundren? Has he done anything to deserve such affection?
I also looked up the meanings of some of the names used in the book to see if Faulkner purposely chose them, and if they had any correlation to the personalities of the characters. Usually I couldn't find an exact match, especially when dealing with names like Vardaman
so the parts in parentheses are the modification I had to make, but here's what I got:Addie - joyful, kind
Dewey Dell - not a mainstream name, but is suspiciously close to 'secret shade'
Anse(l) - 'follows nobility'
Cash(lin) - vain
Darl(a/ene/ita) - dear one, loved one
Jewel - precious stone, joy
Varda/Varden - rose, from the green hill
Well, that didn't work out as well as I thought it would
Gem said:
Addie's father was the most optimistic guy in the world either, declaring that there was no purpose to life except to prepare to stay dead. Illnesses like this probably do run in the family. Darl and Vardaman appear to have milder forms, as of yet. Addie's was extreme to almost the point of suicide. Do you think that having such an illness affected the way that Darl and Vardaman reacted to Addie's death?
Gem said:I know, after Darl does that and saves Jewels life, they still do that to him
It was difficult for me to read. I hate the parts with betrayals and misunderstandings in books, and always have the urge to flip past them to the happy ending. Of course, there was no such happy ending in this case
but I really find these sections so awkward and heavy. I know that this is the whole point of including such a section, but knowing that doesn't make it any easier to read!Gem said:
Bewarned: I am as unschooled as it gets when it comes to writing. I have no talent whatsoever: every English teacher I have ever had has told me so, SAT essay scorers say that I have 'a tendency to ramble,' and I have now become resigned to it. Research papers, essays, term papers, I-search papers, etc. I can work with. Creative writing, I cannot. But I think I will have some fun with this one
Gem
kickbox
ello Veggie,
You could be onto something there. All the meanings seem to be exactly oppsite to what we would associate each character with. Addie is positively not joyful nor was she kind. Cash is like the least vain character. Darl was nobodies dear or beloved one. Jewel was hardly a gem was he. What do you make of it, deliberately done by Faulkner or coincidence. I'm leaning towards deliberately done - its a little too exact to be coincidence.
I doubt she would have understood Darl's honourable intentions, and even if she had, she would have taken Jewel's side. No matter how right she saw Darl to be and how wrong she saw Jewel to be, she would have sided with with Jewel each time. Of course Jewel does not deserve such affection. It's simply because he does not have Bundren blood. She also probably see's him to be a personification of her words/actions theme.
I think that it probably did affect the way Vardaman reacted. Darl seemed to be very aware of her death from the get go. This theme of menatl illness and the way it is or perhaps was treated/dealt with in society is an interesting theme. I hadn't really picked up on it so much the first time i read it, now it's so obvious.
A rambler? you? I never would have thought it! Just kidding, you've probably realised by now - i'm pretty good at the rambling thing - not many people can claim it as a talent - so be proud of it
You could be onto something there. All the meanings seem to be exactly oppsite to what we would associate each character with. Addie is positively not joyful nor was she kind. Cash is like the least vain character. Darl was nobodies dear or beloved one. Jewel was hardly a gem was he. What do you make of it, deliberately done by Faulkner or coincidence. I'm leaning towards deliberately done - its a little too exact to be coincidence.
I doubt she would have understood Darl's honourable intentions, and even if she had, she would have taken Jewel's side. No matter how right she saw Darl to be and how wrong she saw Jewel to be, she would have sided with with Jewel each time. Of course Jewel does not deserve such affection. It's simply because he does not have Bundren blood. She also probably see's him to be a personification of her words/actions theme.
I think that it probably did affect the way Vardaman reacted. Darl seemed to be very aware of her death from the get go. This theme of menatl illness and the way it is or perhaps was treated/dealt with in society is an interesting theme. I hadn't really picked up on it so much the first time i read it, now it's so obvious.
A rambler? you? I never would have thought it!
Just kidding, you've probably realised by now - i'm pretty good at the rambling thing - not many people can claim it as a talent - so be proud of it
veggiedog
New Member
Guten Tag, Gem
I think I will try my 'hello's in a different language every day from now on, 'cause I'm cool like that
I was thinking that at first, but was kind of unsure, as I had to modify a lot of the names to make them work...although I suppose the root meaning would still be similar, whether Darl or Darlita. I actually laughed at some of the meanings, they were so off base. But I agree, the meanings are too precisely opposite to be coincidental. Out of a database of hundreds of thousands of name, it would be exponentially unlikely that Faulkner would come up with exact opposites for so many of his characters' names. And it makes sense that Faulkner would actually think about what he was naming his characters. Why do you think he would go for such an opposite effect? Was he using irony, or sending a message or what?
I had thought about that words vs. actions a great deal. Jewel commits to actions without actually thinking or talking about them. I wonder if Addie has ever considered what chaos there would be if nobody ever talked things through with others before doing things. Imagine all the wars, all the heartbreak. There would be no United Nations (although Addie could not have foreseen that far), no trade, so many disputes; the world would fall to ruin. Jewel acts without thinking, which is possibly one of the biggest flaws a person can have. That, combined with a hot temper, makes him a very dangerous, volatile individual. Without any means communication, we may as well all shoot ourselves now and be done with it before anyone else can.
I've occasionally thought about what qualifies a person to be insane. In some ways, the 'insane' view certain aspects of life with greater sanity than the greater part of man/womankind. They may even have a clearer image of the meaning of life. Just because their views are different from the masses' shouldn't make them considered insane, diseased people that need to be cured. People like Gandhi have been accused of insanity. I don't think that insane is politically correct term, because in reality, (as Cash says) no one is completely sane or completely insane. And from different points of view, different people would be viewed as crazy or normal. There is no strict definition to go by, and their shouldn't be.
That's probably why I'm so great on the debate team...by the time I've finished what I was saying, the opposition, if still awake, has forgotten what I was talking about in the first place.
I think I will try my 'hello's in a different language every day from now on, 'cause I'm cool like that
Gem said:
I was thinking that at first, but was kind of unsure, as I had to modify a lot of the names to make them work...although I suppose the root meaning would still be similar, whether Darl or Darlita. I actually laughed at some of the meanings, they were so off base. But I agree, the meanings are too precisely opposite to be coincidental. Out of a database of hundreds of thousands of name, it would be exponentially unlikely that Faulkner would come up with exact opposites for so many of his characters' names. And it makes sense that Faulkner would actually think about what he was naming his characters. Why do you think he would go for such an opposite effect? Was he using irony, or sending a message or what?
Gem said:
I had thought about that words vs. actions a great deal. Jewel commits to actions without actually thinking or talking about them. I wonder if Addie has ever considered what chaos there would be if nobody ever talked things through with others before doing things. Imagine all the wars, all the heartbreak. There would be no United Nations (although Addie could not have foreseen that far), no trade, so many disputes; the world would fall to ruin. Jewel acts without thinking, which is possibly one of the biggest flaws a person can have. That, combined with a hot temper, makes him a very dangerous, volatile individual. Without any means communication, we may as well all shoot ourselves now and be done with it before anyone else can.
Gem said:
I've occasionally thought about what qualifies a person to be insane. In some ways, the 'insane' view certain aspects of life with greater sanity than the greater part of man/womankind. They may even have a clearer image of the meaning of life. Just because their views are different from the masses' shouldn't make them considered insane, diseased people that need to be cured. People like Gandhi have been accused of insanity. I don't think that insane is politically correct term, because in reality, (as Cash says) no one is completely sane or completely insane. And from different points of view, different people would be viewed as crazy or normal. There is no strict definition to go by, and their shouldn't be.
Gem said:A rambler? you? I never would have thought it!
That's probably why I'm so great on the debate team...by the time I've finished what I was saying, the opposition, if still awake, has forgotten what I was talking about in the first place.
Gem
kickbox
Hello Veggie,
That is like way cool
Okay, so when you say modify....
I'm not familiar with any of his other work - is this like a regular something that he does? Any lurkers out there care to come and enlighten us?
As you say, it could be an irony thing, or perhaps just a little in joke - after all Faulkner is unlikely to have thought that people would go about looking up the definitions of the names. How popular do you think these names were at the time? I'm rather ignorant about such matters.
If it's supposed to be a message, what could it be? Your name/blood does not define who you actually are? - which in a way would lead back to the words/actions in a sense - as it'd be tantamount to saying that your actions define you. Don't know. What do you think?
The other thing i've been thinking about is Addie's coffin, do you think it has any symbolic significance?
Veggiedog, you crack me up.
I can't for the life of me remember when the UN was formed - early 1940's? or earlier? I'm going to go check.
That is like way cool
Okay, so when you say modify....
I'm not familiar with any of his other work - is this like a regular something that he does? Any lurkers out there care to come and enlighten us?
As you say, it could be an irony thing, or perhaps just a little in joke - after all Faulkner is unlikely to have thought that people would go about looking up the definitions of the names. How popular do you think these names were at the time? I'm rather ignorant about such matters.
If it's supposed to be a message, what could it be? Your name/blood does not define who you actually are? - which in a way would lead back to the words/actions in a sense - as it'd be tantamount to saying that your actions define you. Don't know. What do you think?
The other thing i've been thinking about is Addie's coffin, do you think it has any symbolic significance?
Veggiedog, you crack me up.
I can't for the life of me remember when the UN was formed - early 1940's? or earlier? I'm going to go check.
veggiedog
New Member
Shalom Gem,
I am typing this reply from my computer programming class, where I actually should be figuring out how to code a program we are working on. I am such a rebel.
I know! Like, totally.
GEM!! Not like that.
Yes! We need somebody who knows what they are talking about! I can't handle all the work!
All I know is that the name 'Cash' is American and was somewhat popular. 'Addie' was quite popular around Civil War/Reconstruction era (1860s to early 1900s). I can't imagine Vardaman or Dewey Dell being popular names. 'Darl' isn't a very common name either, but similar sounding names like Carl and Darla were mainstream. 'Anse' may have been floating around, I feel like I have heard the name before.
To keep it short: I have no idea. I was just wondering if you did. I don't know if Faulkner agrees with Addie on her word/action philosophy. But seems to make sense as the reason that he may have chosen those names. I'm more inclined to think he was just making a joke. As you said, not a lot of people would bother to check a name dictionary for the meanings. I usually do, though. Much of the time, names in literature for characters were very deliberately chosen by the writer, ex. Holden Caulfield, or hold-on-caul (plus 'field,' which is useless).
I think the coffin is a representation of the huge burden of the entire mission to bury Addie. There all kinds of conflicts involving it--Addie is placed in it backwards, Vardaman drills hole in Addie's face, it is off-balance, it played roles in the river crossing and fire, and it is the spark of the dysfunction of the family. I will add more in my next post, as class is about to end and the teacher is coming around to see what we are up to, so I better look like I know what I'm doing!
It must have been shortly after the end of WWII.
Bye!!
I am typing this reply from my computer programming class, where I actually should be figuring out how to code a program we are working on. I am such a rebel.
Gem said:That is like way cool
I know! Like, totally.
Gem said:Okay, so when you say modify...
GEM!! Not like that.
Gem said:
Yes! We need somebody who knows what they are talking about! I can't handle all the work!
Gem said:
All I know is that the name 'Cash' is American and was somewhat popular. 'Addie' was quite popular around Civil War/Reconstruction era (1860s to early 1900s). I can't imagine Vardaman or Dewey Dell being popular names. 'Darl' isn't a very common name either, but similar sounding names like Carl and Darla were mainstream. 'Anse' may have been floating around, I feel like I have heard the name before.
Gem said:
To keep it short: I have no idea. I was just wondering if you did. I don't know if Faulkner agrees with Addie on her word/action philosophy. But seems to make sense as the reason that he may have chosen those names. I'm more inclined to think he was just making a joke. As you said, not a lot of people would bother to check a name dictionary for the meanings. I usually do, though. Much of the time, names in literature for characters were very deliberately chosen by the writer, ex. Holden Caulfield, or hold-on-caul (plus 'field,' which is useless).
Gem said:
I think the coffin is a representation of the huge burden of the entire mission to bury Addie. There all kinds of conflicts involving it--Addie is placed in it backwards, Vardaman drills hole in Addie's face, it is off-balance, it played roles in the river crossing and fire, and it is the spark of the dysfunction of the family. I will add more in my next post, as class is about to end and the teacher is coming around to see what we are up to, so I better look like I know what I'm doing!
Gem said:
It must have been shortly after the end of WWII.
Bye!!
pontalba
Well-Known Member
Veggiedog and Gem
I've been following your discussion, and all I can say is Wonderful!
I have As I Lay Dying in my TBR stack(s). Y'all have really made nice thread, and I hope to contribute if I can ever work myself up to reading Faulkner. I've tried once before (The Sound and the Fury), but gave up. I was told that AILD might be more platable to me. I hope to find out, and y'all are very encouraging.
Thanks.
Oh btw, here is a link for the U.N. history, which is why I posted to begin with. Oy!
http://www.un.org/aboutun/history.htm
I've been following your discussion, and all I can say is Wonderful!
I have As I Lay Dying in my TBR stack(s). Y'all have really made nice thread, and I hope to contribute if I can ever work myself up to reading Faulkner. I've tried once before (The Sound and the Fury), but gave up. I was told that AILD might be more platable to me. I hope to find out, and y'all are very encouraging.
Thanks.
Oh btw, here is a link for the U.N. history, which is why I posted to begin with. Oy!
http://www.un.org/aboutun/history.htm
veggiedog
New Member
pontalba said:Veggiedog and Gem
I've been following your discussion, and all I can say is Wonderful!
I have As I Lay Dying in my TBR stack(s). Y'all have really made nice thread, and I hope to contribute if I can ever work myself up to reading Faulkner. I've tried once before (The Sound and the Fury), but gave up. I was told that AILD might be more platable to me. I hope to find out, and y'all are very encouraging.
Thanks.
Oh btw, here is a link for the U.N. history, which is why I posted to begin with. Oy!
http://www.un.org/aboutun/history.htm
Yay, Pontalba!
Thank you for the praise. It was all me.
We've gotten a little lazy about spoiler tags, and I apologize if you read anything you didn't want to.
I agree that Faulkner is difficult at first. I haven't read anything of his besides As I Lay Dying, and I probably should as it would greatly enhance our discussion. As you can see, Gem and I are clueless about Faulkner's usual style because all we have is this one book to go by.
My English teacher says that The Sound and the Fury and Absalom, Absalom! are both much more difficult than AILD, so this one would probably be a grand introduction. For me it was tough going at first, getting used to Faulkner's style and shifting narratives. But at some point, it became much easier, and I zipped through it.
I myself loved Faulkner's way of conveying the tone and plot of the book through the multiple narratives. He wasn't flowery with his prose. He didn't try to use big words that he barely understood to confuse people ala Dan Brown. I really appreciate it when writers view their readers as equals.
Join us! I'm sure you will like. There is so much material to explore here (even for such a short novel) and we will never be able to milk it dry without you. And when we do...well then we can just reread it and milk again!
Veggiedog
P.S. I looked at your links in the historical fiction books thread a while ago, and I never thanked you for them, so here it is: thank you!
EDIT: Eek! I didn't even ramble! There can be miracles...when you believe...
pontalba
Well-Known Member
Veggiedog, You are more than welcome. And don't worry about those spoiler thingys for me, as far as I am concerned, they enhance the reading. Plus usually by the time I get to the described section, I've forgotten what the so called spoiler was. Either that or the penny drops a bit sooner, which is fine with me.
And eventually, I will read AILD.
And eventually, I will read AILD.
veggiedog
New Member
Kem cho again, Gem
It's kind of depressing that I had to ask my parents how to say 'hello' in Gujrati (it had slipped my mind). They are very ashamed of me. I don't know about yours, but my older Indian relatives (when they even bother to attempt English) say 'hallaow' instead of 'hello'. So they have no right to speak.
Okay, now that I am home and have made myself comfortable after three hours of rotting my brains in front of the tv, I can give a proper answer. The coffin represents: the absurdity of the trek, the dysfunction of the family, the burden on the Bundrens (ah, alliterations!), and other bad stuff. Everything that goes wrong centers about the coffin (see examples in my post before the last), as though the coffin (or Addie) is the gathering point. Maybe there is something more beneath all this, but I can't think of it right now. As I have mentioned prior, my brain is in a state of degredation.
Also, this has nothing to do with the coffin thing, but I noticed something about the Odyssey quote: "As I lay dying the woman with the dog's eyes would not close my eyelids for me as I descended into Hades."
Agamemnon calls Clytemnestra the "woman with the dog's eyes." Darl states repeatedly that Jewel has "wooden eyes." It was just something that I picked up on, whether Faulkner intended a correlation or not. I hope I didn't post that already before because I feel like I've said somewhere before, probably class, though...
Unfortunately, the same rambling technique doesn't work as well in forums, because if the opposition has forgotten what I was talking about, it can just as easily scroll up and reread
Veggiedog
P.S. Sorry to disappoint, but no rambling posts of recent times as of yet!
EDIT: Sorry Pontalba, I didn't see your second post because I left in the middle of making one myself for dinner (I was hungry, okay?!) but you are free to join in the discussion at any time, before, while, or after reading the book! Good luck with AILD!
It's kind of depressing that I had to ask my parents how to say 'hello' in Gujrati (it had slipped my mind). They are very ashamed of me. I don't know about yours, but my older Indian relatives (when they even bother to attempt English) say 'hallaow' instead of 'hello'. So they have no right to speak.
Gem said:
Okay, now that I am home and have made myself comfortable after three hours of rotting my brains in front of the tv, I can give a proper answer. The coffin represents: the absurdity of the trek, the dysfunction of the family, the burden on the Bundrens (ah, alliterations!), and other bad stuff. Everything that goes wrong centers about the coffin (see examples in my post before the last), as though the coffin (or Addie) is the gathering point. Maybe there is something more beneath all this, but I can't think of it right now. As I have mentioned prior, my brain is in a state of degredation.
Also, this has nothing to do with the coffin thing, but I noticed something about the Odyssey quote: "As I lay dying the woman with the dog's eyes would not close my eyelids for me as I descended into Hades."
Agamemnon calls Clytemnestra the "woman with the dog's eyes." Darl states repeatedly that Jewel has "wooden eyes." It was just something that I picked up on, whether Faulkner intended a correlation or not. I hope I didn't post that already before
because I feel like I've said somewhere before, probably class, though...Gem said:Veggiedog, you crack me up.
Unfortunately, the same rambling technique doesn't work as well in forums, because if the opposition has forgotten what I was talking about, it can just as easily scroll up and reread
Veggiedog
P.S. Sorry to disappoint, but no rambling posts of recent times as of yet!
EDIT: Sorry Pontalba, I didn't see your second post because I left in the middle of making one myself for dinner (I was hungry, okay?!) but you are free to join in the discussion at any time, before, while, or after reading the book! Good luck with AILD!
Gem
kickbox
Veggiedog,
I just got back home and have skimmed thorugh your posts - hang on don't get mad - i'll reread them thoroughly in the morning and post one of my usual insightful and *cough cough* deep meaningful replies.
Pontalba,
Hello! It's nice to see you here, next time you pop in we'll have some coffee prepared Yep, I completely recommend As I Lay Dying, although it may seem a little coarse and rough around the edges after the finesse of Nabokov.
It's true that Veggie does all the work around here, i just sort of sit back and nod alot (during her longer rambles i nod off every now and then as well - sorry Veggie i couldn't resist ) Veggie rambles because she has so much to say and so much excitement about the book and i ramble because mostly i have no idea what i'm saying.
But please please do join in. For Pontalbas eyes only:
I just got back home and have skimmed thorugh your posts - hang on don't get mad - i'll reread them thoroughly in the morning and post one of my usual insightful and *cough cough* deep meaningful replies.
Pontalba,
Hello! It's nice to see you here, next time you pop in we'll have some coffee prepared
Yep, I completely recommend As I Lay Dying, although it may seem a little coarse and rough around the edges after the finesse of Nabokov.It's true that Veggie does all the work around here, i just sort of sit back and nod alot (during her longer rambles i nod off every now and then as well -
sorry Veggie i couldn't resist ) Veggie rambles because she has so much to say and so much excitement about the book and i ramble because mostly i have no idea what i'm saying. But please please do join in. For Pontalbas eyes only:
and save me...Veggie is a hard taskmaster and she bullies me into having to think. Veggie if you're reading this -shame on you