William Faulkner: As I Lay Dying

[pontalba]

veggiedog and Gem

ROTFALOL!!

You make me want to move it further up on my list!

Done.


and thanks.

 

[veggiedog]

Konnichi wa Gem,

I just got back home and have skimmed thorugh your posts - hang on don't get mad - i'll reread them thoroughly in the morning and post one of my usual insightful and *cough cough* deep meaningful replies.

Ok.

It's true that Veggie does all the work around here, i just sort of sit back and nod alot (during her longer rambles i nod off every now and then as well - sorry Veggie i couldn't resist ) Veggie rambles because she has so much to say and so much excitement about the book and i ramble because mostly i have no idea what i'm saying.

Finally! Some appreciation...

For Pontalbas eyes only:

Spoiler

and save me...Veggie is a hard taskmaster and she bullies me into having to think. Veggie if you're reading this -shame on you

...or not

Hmmph! Fine, be that way if you must. Unlike you, Gem, I will handle this matter in a sophisticated manner . To Pontalba:

Spoiler

Emgay isway eanmay. Ameshay onway ouyay, Emgay!

Okay, now to business. This question(s) doesn't require too much thinking, Gem:
I think that Faulkner is a genius. He is able to use so much connotation with a not-so-subtle writing style. He is so capable, with just a few words, of making us hate characters like Anse and appreciate characters like Darl. I love his coarse, gritty, abrupt writing style as opposed to the winding of some of the other more "rah-rah" glitz & glamour Roarin' twenties jazz age-y authors of his time. Does his style provide a more effective approach to the issues he has raised in As I Lay Dying? To me, AILD was a somewhat looser, blunter account rather than a strict, direct storyline. It had all the drama sucked out of it, which I think made it even more striking and shocking than had it been flowery and choked with emotion. The rawness of the language and display of human character is much more meaningful in this context than would be refined poetic wordiness. He was one of the few Americans to ever win a Nobel Prize for contributions to literature, so someone must have thought he was pretty good. Do you think AILD would have been the same experience without some of Faulkner's key characteristics? Do you think it could have been better? Do you think he could have gotten his point across more forcefully? What do you think his main point was? He seemed to address many issues in the novel (isolationism, insanity, identity, etc.) but how do they tie together? What is Faulkner saying about human nature?

Off to study for my first final: Math (ick!)
Veggiedog

 

[pontalba]

Hmmph! Fine, be that way if you must. Unlike you, Gem, I will handle this matter in a sophisticated manner . To Pontalba:

Spoiler

Emgay isway eanmay. Ameshay onway ouyay, Emgay!

Off to study for my first final: Math (ick!)
Veggiedog

veggiedog On the first A little too sophisticated for this gal! LOL Had to get me a translator! LOL Gem really knows how to bring out the best in a co-poster doesn't she. Seriously, I have moved it up in my TBR, y'all have me curious to test out Faulkner's prose. As a comparative study you understand.

On the last....(math) you have my total sympathy! ewww.

 

[Gem]

Pontalba,

Excellent, we'll try to get you to keep moving it up the pile til it reaches the top

Oh and it's not like i tried to read Veggies message to you...not at all...darn the google translator, it let me down...


Hello Veggie,

Agreed on the coffin thing. It represents their burden, and it is Addie- a family member they are carrying, it's perhaps a way of saying that the family is a burden to each of the individuals. It could also be a way of highlighting that Addie is actually the burden - she is the one who has made them what they are - their failings are to a great extent her fault, and they'll have to carry that with them for the rest of their lives. Burying the coffin would symbolically let them at least get some normalcy to their lives. Perhaps that's why they struggle on despite all the events, subconsiously they want to attain some sort of closure.

Finally! Some appreciation...

You're appreciated. In fact i was going to offer you the position of co-founder for the Ramblers R Us club.

Do you think AILD would have been the same experience without some of Faulkner's key characteristics? Do you think it could have been better? Do you think he could have gotten his point across more forcefully? What do you think his main point was? He seemed to address many issues in the novel (isolationism, insanity, identity, etc.) but how do they tie together? What is Faulkner saying about human nature?

I thought you said this didn't require too much thinking

In order to get a better understanding of Faulkner I have started to read The Sound & The Fury. Haven't made much (read that as none whatsoever) progress with it though. It is also about a family and told from the viewpoints of different people.
I don't think he could have got the point across any more forcefully in As I Lay Dying. His approach ensured that the novel wasn't just simple melodrama, and that it was thought provoking and shocking. Take for instance Darl, all along we see him as perhaps the most guiding narrator because he gives so much detail and analysis. I came to rely on his insights in order to understand the family. And then, his breakdown. The image of him alone in a cage foaming at the mouth is still so strong in my head, more so because he was so important all the way through. A brilliant way to highlight the theme of mental illness and to give it a voice and get people to think it through.

As to what links the themes, i'm going to have to give that a little more thought, though perhaps human nature is at the centre of it all. The human nature question is very interesting. Because there we have this family, the members are selfish and not really likeable, we hate Anse and yet they still manage to complete their task and fulfil their promise. A matter of honour perhaps? That even people like Anse have a code of honour? So is Faulkner saying that human nature is multifaceted?

From what i know of Faulkner, social issues like class and race were major themes in his work. Keeping in mind the time it was written, was AILD his way of saying look, here is this 'white trash' (nasty term) family, yes they are coarse, ignorant etc just like you would expect them to be, but yet look here they kept their promise, they went through hell to do an honourable deed. Perhaps they are not so different to you. Another method of this was how, in the dialogues they speak with the kind of vocabulary you would expect, yet in their thoughts their language is almost poetic. Another way of saying that the exteriors may be different but the interiors are the same as everybody else?

Okay, i hope i've been making sense. Sorry for the rambling.

Oh and good luck with your Finals. Go concentrate 100% on them and this thread will be be waiting when you come back.

Oh, and real sophisticated


EDIT: Interestingly, the title of The Sound & The Fury, apparently comes from Macbeth.

 

[veggiedog]

To Pontalba:

A comparative study hmm? Yeah, right. Well, any excuse to make you read it sooner!

Ellohay Emgay,

Oh and it's not like i tried to read Veggies message to you...not at all...darn the google translator, it let me down...

<<whisper>> Don't tell anyone, but I use google translator for my Spanish homework.

Agreed on the coffin thing. It represents their burden, and it is Addie- a family member they are carrying, it's perhaps a way of saying that the family is a burden to each of the individuals. It could also be a way of highlighting that Addie is actually the burden - she is the one who has made them what they are - their failings are to a great extent her fault, and they'll have to carry that with them for the rest of their lives. Burying the coffin would symbolically let them at least get some normalcy to their lives. Perhaps that's why they struggle on despite all the events, subconsiously they want to attain some sort of closure.

The Bundrens are burdens.
And they also want abortions, trains, gramophones, and teeth.

You're appreciated. In fact i was going to offer you the position of co-founder for the Ramblers R Us club.

How many members are there? We must send a long, rambling pm everyone to let them know.

In order to get a better understanding of Faulkner I have started to read The Sound & The Fury. Haven't made much (read that as none whatsoever) progress with it though. It is also about a family and told from the viewpoints of different people.

I haven't even looked at The S & the F! I'm a little bit scared...

As to what links the themes, i'm going to have to give that a little more thought, though perhaps human nature is at the centre of it all. The human nature question is very interesting. Because there we have this family, the members are selfish and not really likeable, we hate Anse and yet they still manage to complete their task and fulfil their promise. A matter of honour perhaps? That even people like Anse have a code of honour? So is Faulkner saying that human nature is multifaceted?

I was thinking about the human nature thing too. If you have read Faulkner's speech after receiving the Nobel Prize, he says that the job of writers is to depict human nature and society as how they are. Show them how terrible or how great they are, and how they can improve, as only that can inspire them to love more passionately, give more willingly, and become a better race.

From what i know of Faulkner, social issues like class and race were major themes in his work. Keeping in mind the time it was written, was AILD his way of saying look, here is this 'white trash' (nasty term) family, yes they are coarse, ignorant etc just like you would expect them to be, but yet look here they kept their promise, they went through hell to do an honourable deed.

Faulkner views their entire journey as kind of pointless heroism. It's hard to say whether it was tragic or comic, honorable or pathetic. I suppose it could be any and all of them. <<Addie's Revenge--kind of like a cheesy horror movie>>.

I have copy of Light in August (that I have not read yet--made it to about page 5) which is not as rough as AILD because it doesn't use the shifting narrators. But it certainly addresses racism, the main character is plagued by not knowing his identity, another character is a poor, pregnant girl kind of shunned by her family. Any of these could be turned around into societal issues, so society probably was a major theme.

Okay, i hope i've been making sense. Sorry for the rambling.

I've come to expect it.

Oh and good luck with your Finals. Go concentrate 100% on them and this thread will be be waiting when you come back.

Tomorrow I have only one final (biology) since we took the programming final last week--the final in there was to write a program to convert between English and Igpay Atinlay
Thanks for the luck

Oh, and real sophisticated

I learn from the best.

EDIT: Interestingly, the title of The Sound & The Fury, apparently comes from Macbeth.

I thought it sounded familiar. I remember reading it in Macbeth last year:

From Macbeth's soliloquy act 5, scene 5:

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle.
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Life is a tale told by an idiot? Hmm. I'll have to think over that one. I suppose it might help if I get over my fear of The S & the F and just read it

Veggiedog

 

[Gem]

Veggie,

I just worked out your secret message (no one can accuse me of being slow ) and my reply:

I'll come back later and respond to the rest of your post, i have dinner guests coming soon and no dinner.

Oh and thanks for the Macbeth soliloquy, as for the 'Life is a tale told by an idiot' well the first narrator in the Sound and the Fury is Benjy who is mentally challenged so hhmmm. I think i may have a copy of Light in August somewhere in my pile, i'll gladly abandon The Sound & the Fury and read that with you instead

 

[Gem]

Hello Veggie,

Don't tell anyone, but I use google translator for my Spanish homework.

tsk tsk. Kids these days.. now in my time there was no such thing as a google translator.....

How many members are there? We must send a long, rambling pm everyone to let them know.

You take care of the recruitment and i'll er take care of the um financial stuff.

Faulkner views their entire journey as kind of pointless heroism. It's hard to say whether it was tragic or comic, honorable or pathetic. I suppose it could be any and all of them.

I'd say a mix of all of them.

In an earlier post you mentioned the whole Jewel/wooden eyes thing and how that could be linked back to the Odyssey. It's funny how Jewel should be described in such terms - ie. wooden and dull etc when we know that he is actually a very passionate and fiery person capable of extreme acts of anger. Faulkner makes eveything topsy turvy, making it even harder to analyse. Take for example Cora - she gives us all this information about the family but we learn that we just can't believe her or trust her opinions because Addie says that Cora never could cook, and yet there was Cora going on about how wonderful her cakes were.

The other thing i was thinking was, Darl is all about thoughts whereas Jewel is all about action and it is Cash who by the end has grown up enough to become a mixture of the two. What did you think of Cash?

 

[veggiedog]

Ni hao Gem,

tsk tsk. Kids these days.. now in my time there was no such thing as a google translator.....

And yet you tried to use it to decode a message that was not even for you.

You take care of the recruitment and i'll er take care of the um financial stuff.

What financial stuff?! Are you making me do all the work again?!

Take for example Cora - she gives us all this information about the family but we learn that we just can't believe her or trust her opinions because Addie says that Cora never could cook, and yet there was Cora going on about how wonderful her cakes were.

Cora is clearly a very unreliable narrator:

1. She calls Addie a faithful wife (something about how just being a faithful wife isn't enough to get into heaven) and praises the hypocrite Whitfield endlessly.
2. She tells Addie that it not her duty to judge others (it is god's job) and yet Cora herself is very judgmental.
3. She was angry with Cash for nailing together the coffin right outside of Addie's window, when Addie specifically wanted him to so she could observe his progress.
4. She hates Jewel and believes he doesn't love his mother. She says that Jewel wanted to get another load, forget his dying mother, when it was really Darl who wanted to get the load.

The other thing i was thinking was, Darl is all about thoughts whereas Jewel is all about action and it is Cash who by the end has grown up enough to become a mixture of the two. What did you think of Cash?

I liked Cash for the most part. He was much more practical and direct than the other Bundrens, so it was logical that he became our reliable narrator towards the end. As you said, he is both a man of action (building the coffin) and words (reflecting over the concept of insanity), but for all his practicality, he is too passive to be a 'hero' type of figure. You can tell that he is bright, especially mathematically, but he isn't strong enough to adamantly stand up for himself and those he cares about. Examples:

1. While he is upset that Addie's body was placed backwards in the coffin, he doesn't actually turn her around. He just talks about how the coffin is off-balance.
2. He repeatedly says that his leg doesn't hurt after it breaks again (although quite clearly it does) and insists he doesn't need a doctor.
3. He considers that a mental institution may not be the best place for Darl, but never actually says so to the others.

Cash is the Bundren we learn least about throughout the novel. He is little bit emotionally behind the others. He isn't quite as sensitive, and takes a more stunted approach to Addie's death. While he clearly loves his mother, he never says anything to suggest it. Instead he pours all his energy and love into carefully constructing the coffin (Addie would have been proud; she herself said that she and Cash didn't have to verbally communicate to be aware of each others' love). Cash has a tendency to keep silent that sometimes results in disastrous consequences--kind of a point-counter point to Addie's annoyance with words. However, Cash was one of only characters to remain stable throughout the course of the book. As for the mixture thing, I think it is a good thing. Obviously being all thought/no action or all action/no thought are both very unfortunate positions. Most people are meant to be a mixture of the two.

Darl and Jewel are both interesting characters, because they both could be argued protagonist or antagonist. Some of my classmates viewed Darl as a cruel, menacing brother, and Jewel as the strong, independent hero, 'liberating' his mother. I suppose you could interpret either way, but I don't think that Faulkner was glorifying Jewel's behavior. Jewel seemed like a favorable character though, up until the end. But he was always pitted against Darl (thoughts vs. actions), so you are forced to choose one or the other.

Just out of curiosity, what did you think of some of the non-Bundren characters? Do you think they were meant to show an 'unbiased' opinion of the Bundrens, and how society viewed them? Example: That one pharmacist guy (Moseley?) perhaps represented society's views of pregnancy and abortion--considered dirty things at the time. Even the passing of birth control information through the mail at the time was illegal because it was viewed as 'obscene'. It wasn't until Roe v. Wade that the woman was granted with the unalienable right to a safe abortion. Cora kind of shows the religious aspect. What do you think?

Oh and thanks for the Macbeth soliloquy, as for the 'Life is a tale told by an idiot' well the first narrator in the Sound and the Fury is Benjy who is mentally challenged so hhmmm.

Any time.

I think i may have a copy of Light in August somewhere in my pile, i'll gladly abandon The Sound & the Fury and read that with you instead

You wimp! (Not that I'm any better...)
I'm game for L in A if you are...

Veggiedog

Eek! I'm back to my rambling ways!

 

[Ronny]

Just wanted to pop in and say I'm about half way through and so far liking it better than the Sound And The Fury, it has been easier for me to follow and I think I understand it a bit better. I've glanced around this thread but not read too much of it as I want to finish the book first, so I look forward to reading through all your posts and joining in soon.

 

[veggiedog]

Hello again, Ronny!
I'm glad to hear you like the book so far.

Just wanted to pop in and say I'm about half way through and so far liking it better than the Sound And The Fury, it has been easier for me to follow and I think I understand it a bit better. I've glanced around this thread but not read too much of it as I want to finish the book first, so I look forward to reading through all your posts and joining in soon.

Just a couple of questions if you happen to read this post before you finish the book:

1. Who is your favorite character as of yet? Why? Least favorite?
2. What do you think of Darl and Jewel? Do you like/agree with one more than the other?
3. If you have read Addie's passage yet, what do you think of it?

Finish it soon! Gem is so boring!
To Gem:

Veggiedog

 

[Gem]

Ronny,

Join us soon.

Veggie,

Finish it soon! Gem is so boring!
To Gem:

I'll take your and raise it to

Just out of curiosity, what did you think of some of the non-Bundren characters?

You've made some very interesting points. Without a doubt these characters have a specific reason for being. I can see why you would say that Cora represents the religious argument etc. This all makes sense, but i'm a little unclear about what Faulkner is actually saying through them. Cora is completely unreliable, so what is Faulkner saying here about the religious aspects?
No doubt the pharmacist guy is there to represent socities view of abortion - Faulkner has a tendancy to deal with these issues.

meant to show an 'unbiased' opinion of the Bundrens, and how society viewed them?

I think he does this splendidly when he shows how in the rural areas they are welcomed graciously but when they are in the richer parts of town they are looked down upon - the marshall tells them they can't stay, and a man pulls a knife on Jewel (I'll come back to this scene in my next post because there's an interesting honour thing going on there).

At times it becomes really hard to see whether Faulkner is criticizing the traditional 'Southern' values or whether he is celebrating them. Any thoughts?

Nice analysis on Cash, I agree that he was the only one who was consistently stable but i found myself unable to like him because he was just so darn passive.

you wimp! (Not that I'm any better...)
I'm game for L in A if you are...

Eek! I'm back to my rambling ways!

Actually i was up last night reading the Sound & the Fury, but i think it's going to take a couple of rereadings to scrape through to the millions layers it has. Hard book to get into.

LIA next it is then...

Yay! welcome back rambler!

 

[veggiedog]

Ciao Gem,

This all makes sense, but i'm a little unclear about what Faulkner is actually saying through them. Cora is completely unreliable, so what is Faulkner saying here about the religious aspects?

I think that with the outside characters, Faulkner is showing how others view the Bundrens as a pathetic, pitiable family (with Anse at the core of their problems) and some of the societal views of white trash of the time. I'm not quite sure what Faulkner is saying about relgion. He seems to be mocking it for the most part. Cora is the only staunchly religious character, and is also quite stupid and full of herself. Whitefield, the other 'religious' character is a minister (or a priest?) and is a hypocritical phoney.

I think he does this splendidly when he shows how in the rural areas they are welcomed graciously but when they are in the richer parts of town they are looked down upon - the marshall tells them they can't stay, and a man pulls a knife on Jewel (I'll come back to this scene in my next post because there's an interesting honour thing going on there).

The Bundrens are more tolerated in rural communities than welcomed and are looked down upon pretty much everywhere.
In towns, the Bundrens are clearly not accepted at all. The Bundrens have also developed prejudices against townies. Anse is constantly cursing the durn townfolk because they have better lives than he does (and I wonder whose fault that is?). Vardaman is worried that god likes town boys better than country boys.

At times it becomes really hard to see whether Faulkner is criticizing the traditional 'Southern' values or whether he is celebrating them. Any thoughts?

Faulkner was a very interesting person. He has been regarded as both a brilliant writer and a drunk redneck. It seems to be that Faulkner is a little bit annoyed by the whole Southern hospitality/being a good neighbor thing if the receiving party doesn't deserve it. However, he also finds Southern hospitality a very noble thing, and this also has to do with class issues in that the rural communities were very kind to the Bundrens, whereas the townspeople were not. He is also annoyed by pride, if the proud person (Anse) is willing to sacrifice his/her dignity and livelihood to protect it. He was clearly upset with the social class system of the South, which is evident with the rural v. urban mannerisms. Honor and loyalty are some other important values. It seems to me that with all of these values, Faulkner is trying to say that when applied in the right context, they make us better people. But possessing values should not override common sense, as it often did in the Bundrens' case.

I also have a couple of questions about Vardaman and Dewey Dell.

Firstly, I wasn't quite sure about how old Faulkner meant Vardaman to be. Vardaman is given some of the responsibilities of an older child: he was expected to gut the fish, care for the animals, catch Peabody's horses, etc., indicating that he should be about 12-14 years old. But the way he thinks and behaves implies that he is either much younger than the suggested age, maybe 5-7 years old, or is maybe mentally slower? An older age would make more sense, I think, considering Cash is estimated to be about 28 or 29 years old, and Dewey Dell, the closest sibling in age to Vardaman, is 17. It would be difficult for a woman of the time to have a child at 45 years of age, which Addie presumably would have been had Vardaman been younger than 7 years of age. What do you think?

About Dewey Dell, I can't help but think that if Freud was ever to run across her, he would have a field day. She seems to feel sexually oppressed by everyone, including the rest of her family (except for Vardaman), Lafe, Peabody, and Peabody's shop attendent. What do you think of her predicament? True tell the truth, I find it hard to feel sympathetic for her, despite all that she has gone through.

Actually i was up last night reading the Sound & the Fury, but i think it's going to take a couple of rereadings to scrape through to the millions layers it has. Hard book to get into.

Good for you!

LIA next it is then...

Okay. If anyone else out there wants to join us with Light in August, feel free. Should we start in a couple of weeks?

Veggiedog

p.s. SCHOOL'S OUT!!

 

[Gem]

Hello Veggie,

Firstly, I wasn't quite sure about how old Faulkner meant Vardaman to be.

I thought that he was older than seven. As you pointed out, he had all those responsibilities, and a kid under the age of seven just wouldn't have the physicalities like height and strength to be expected to do things like catch Peabody's horse or drill holes into the coffin.

I think we've agreed that the mental illness theme runs through the family, and i think that teamed with Vardamans questionable behaviour makes it higly likely that he is slow for his age. Although he is the baby of the family so perhaps that may account for some of his immaturity?
He wanted a red toy didn't he? I wonder if there is any significance/symbolism to the things that each of them wanted from town?

About Dewey Dell, I can't help but think that if Freud was ever to run across her, he would have a field day. She seems to feel sexually oppressed by everyone, including the rest of her family (except for Vardaman), Lafe, Peabody, and Peabody's shop attendent. What do you think of her predicament? True tell the truth, I find it hard to feel sympathetic for her, despite all that she has gone through.

Ah Dewey Dell, I can just picture her, I see her as a scruffier, less intelligent version of Lolita. All in all i think that she provides a snapshot of a so called 'white trash' 17 year old. The world only sees her for her sexual value. So who made her the way she is? How much of it is societies fault for pegging girls like her into a certain box and not letting them out of it? How much of it is Anse and Addie's fault? A great deal of it I would say, if they had perhaps shown her some love and understanding then she would have had enough self worth to understand that sex does not equate into love or being wanted. All though I doubt that she even understands why she entered into a sexual relationship.

Okay that's enough rambling from me for now.

Should we start in a couple of weeks?

Okay.

p.s. SCHOOL'S OUT!!

Enjoy your Summer . Not like i'm jealous or anything.

 

[veggiedog]

Salaam, Gem

He wanted a red toy didn't he? I wonder if there is any significance/symbolism to the things that each of them wanted from town?

I really don't know if there was any symbolism. All I noticed was that Jewel and Darl were the only ones who didn't have any obvious ulterior motive for wanting to go to town, which is certainly significant. But Vardaman, as you said, wanted a train, Dewey Dell wanted an abortion, Cash wanted a phonograph, and Anse wanted the teeth so he could eat his God-given victuals . Darl and Jewel both had special relationships with their mother: one was the favorite, the other was the least favorite. I would say that Jewel wanted to get his mother into the ground, just as she had requested, as far away from the Bundrens as possible. For Darl, it is hard to say. I think that he probably loved his mother the most out of any of them, although the same can't be said of her, and wanted to prevent the family from losing their few shreds of dignity? Or maybe he didn't want the family to ruin themselves (but that was quite unpreventable with a father like Anse, if you ask me)?

The world only sees her for her sexual value. So who made her the way she is? How much of it is societies fault for pegging girls like her into a certain box and not letting them out of it? How much of it is Anse and Addie's fault? A great deal of it I would say, if they had perhaps shown her some love and understanding then she would have had enough self worth to understand that sex does not equate into love or being wanted. All though I doubt that she even understands why she entered into a sexual relationship.

Whenever I think of Dewey Dell, I think of Mayella Ewell. Even though Mayella

Spoiler

wasn't actually raped

she is that picture of 'white trash' that the town of Maycomb sees, some crude, dirty, unloved girl who was apparently sexually violated. The Ewells are even quoted as being white trash--a family that has no dignity, a drunken father, and basically rejected by their community.
I think if Addie was still alive, Dewey Dell may have been able to handle her pregnancy with at least more care and less desperation. Addie would have been the only one she could possibly talk to. The other women, such as Cora, seem very judgmental and impossible to discuss personal matters with without them getting very into a very angry you-have-denied-the-teachings-of-god! type of mood. And who else does she have to go to? Anse? As you said, she clearly doesn't understand love, and seems to think that sex is brought about by love, or vice versa.

Enjoy your Summer . Not like i'm jealous or anything.

Thanks

Veggiedog.

P.S. Are you going to talk about the honor thing you mentioned in your previous post?

 

[Gem]

Hello Veggie,

P.S. Are you going to talk about the honor thing you mentioned in your previous post?

Yes, sorry I would have added this on the previous post but i had to go out - I'm househunting, so had to go see one - what a waste of time that was.

Okay, the honour thing, let me turn your attention to Darl's section (which in my book starts on pg216) where Jewel gets into a scuffle with a man and Darl intervenes;

"Wait" I say. "He don't mean nothing. He's sick;got burned in a fire last night, and he ain't himself"

So here Darl is trying to diffuse the situation. he adds

"He never meant anything. He'll take it back"

Situation diffused, but then Darl adds "

Do you think he's afraid to call you that?"

It's like even Darl who I thought had no repsect for things like honour, sees the importance of ensuring that the man understands that although Jewel backed down he wasn't scared of getting into a fight - kind of a family pride/honour thing. This little scene actually reminded me of Shakespeare for some reason.
It is small scenes like this that made me look at the Bundrens from a different perspective - beneath the selfishness there is perhaps something else.

Oh and i was looking at a website on Faulkner earlier - (and i can't seem to find it now ) and it had a summary of AILD, which stated that 9 years after the birth of youngest child, Addie Bundren dies...or something along those lines. That would make Vardaman 9...still a bit younger than i thought him to be.

I think if Addie was still alive, Dewey Dell may have been able to handle her pregnancy with at least more care and less desperation.

Actually, i don't know whether Addie would of been of any help whatsoever. I can't help but feel sorry for Addie but she wasn't particularly likeable.

Animals play a big part in AILD don't they - Vardaman and his fish, Jewel and the horse - the whole "my mother is a fish" and "your mother is a horse" what do you think of it all?

 

[Ronny]

1. Who is your favorite character as of yet? Why? Least favorite?
2. What do you think of Darl and Jewel? Do you like/agree with one more than the other?
3. If you have read Addie's passage yet, what do you think of it?

Veggiedog

Hi, sorry it took me awhile to get back, I have that pesky move going on and have been busy

You may regret my joining in as Faulkner is still a hard read for me, I do like this book better than the Sound And The Fury but I still would not say it's easy going for me.

I don't know if I have a favorite or least favorite yet, I find Cora's parts very amusing because she always has her own biased view. She always sees things her way and it seems no one or circumstance can convince her otherwise. I do wonder because she has in her first part references to Mr. Tull telling her some of her mixed information but it seems in Tull's parts that he is a very straight forward narrator. Does that change or, does Cora just take the bits she wants to form her views?

Darl and Jewel are each still a bit vague to me, it does seem as if Jewel is a bit angrier or discontent than the others so far. Darl seems to be a little more flat as if he observes all that is going on but is not part of it. I do have a hard time catching some of the details, so I could have missed some key parts.

I have not reached Addie's part yet.

I have a feeling when I finish I'll have more questions than comments

 

[Gem]

Hello Ronny,

Does that change or, does Cora just take the bits she wants to form her views?

I think you just described Cora down to a t there. She remains the same - we've been discusisng how she represents the religious aspect of things and I was wondering on Faulkners view of religion - and your words helped clarify my thoughts - is Faulkner perhaps simpley saying that a religion is formed simply by taking the bits and pieces it wants. Hmmm more to think over.

I have a feeling when I finish I'll have more questions than comments

Good, I still have many questions too, we'll bug Veggiedog with them together.

I hope the move is going well. Take your time over the book - me Veggie will still be here alternately giggling and bickering together.

 

[veggiedog]

Hello Gem,

I'm househunting, so had to go see one - what a waste of time that was.

Good luck

It's like even Darl who I thought had no repsect for things like honour, sees the importance of ensuring that the man understands that although Jewel backed down he wasn't scared of getting into a fight - kind of a family pride/honour thing.

This also reminded me of another scene (that really wasn't about honor, but it was about family): after the wagon tipped over in the flooded river, Jewel was determined to retrieve as many of Cash's tools as possible. He understood how important the tools were to Cash and did everything in his power to get them back.

Oh and i was looking at a website [...] which stated that 9 years after the birth of youngest child, Addie Bundren dies...or something along those lines. That would make Vardaman 9...still a bit younger than i thought him to be.

I wonder how they figured that out? I don't remember the book giving any clear indication of Vardy's age...I suppose they must have done their research, though.

Animals play a big part in AILD don't they - Vardaman and his fish, Jewel and the horse - the whole "my mother is a fish" and "your mother is a horse" what do you think of it all?

Here is my (short and sweet) evaluation of animals as symbols:

horse - this was interesting because Darl referred to Jewel's horse as his mother, or that he invested more love in his horse than in his actual mother. When we learn how Jewel came to possess the horse, we see that he used it as a way to assert his independence from Addie and the other Bundrens. He later gives up his horse for the sake of what he views as Addie's honor, showing that he really does love his mother (?)

fish - Vardaman's way of understanding Addie's death, a symbol of death really. The fish, or "not-fish" is comparable to Addie's transformation from Addie into a limp, lifeless thing in a box.

buzzards - symbols of death and mortality, the alienation of the Bundrens from the rest of the world, the physical state of death can be nasty and miserable

What other animals were there?

Hi Ronny,

Hi, sorry it took me awhile to get back, I have that pesky move going on and have been busy

I hope the move is going well.

You may regret my joining in as Faulkner is still a hard read for me, I do like this book better than the Sound And The Fury but I still would not say it's easy going for me.

Of course we don't regret you joining in! I can't think of anyone whom Faulkner was easy for. We are here to help each other understand the book, after all.

I do wonder because she has in her first part references to Mr. Tull telling her some of her mixed information but it seems in Tull's parts that he is a very straight forward narrator. Does that change or, does Cora just take the bits she wants to form her views?

I would agree that Tull is one of the more sensible narrators. Cora just hears what she wants to hear and concludes what she wants to conclude.

Darl and Jewel are each still a bit vague to me, it does seem as if Jewel is a bit angrier or discontent than the others so far. Darl seems to be a little more flat as if he observes all that is going on but is not part of it. I do have a hard time catching some of the details, so I could have missed some key parts.

Because each of the characters is narrating from their own perspective, it sometimes becomes difficult to know what is actually going on. Sometimes they will relate the same event, but from different points of view. I know what you mean about the details; my teacher said that every time she reads the book again, she catches something she hadn't noticed the previous reading. You've at least caught some of the basic characteristics of Jewel and Darl. By the end, you will know them both very well.

I have a feeling when I finish I'll have more questions than comments

Questions are good. Gem and I need someone to make us think. Questions raise issues that we may not have noticed at all before it was asked.

Veggiedog

 

[Gem]

Hello Veggie,

Good luck

Thank you, I really need it.

Jewel was determined to retrieve as many of Cash's tools as possible. He understood how important the tools were to Cash and did everything in his power to get them back.

They can all be so caring and protective of one another one minute and the next completely betray each other.

As for the Animal symbolism, well in Greek mythology the horse is sometimes associated with Poseidon - God of the seas. Who in the Odyssey, and in many more myths was portrayed as an angry turbulent God prone to a terrible temper - sound familiar?
The only other horse link I can think of is Pegasus (the winged horse form Greek mythology). To me wings indicate some kind of freedom or escape. Perhaps that's why Jewel loves his horse so much - it sets him apart from the family - gives him some sort of a freedom when he rides it.

I can't think of any other animals that were mentioned - oh except for a cow?! by Dewey Dell - it was something to do with milk? Although I guess that is pretty self explanatory considering Dewey Dell's condition.

Which one of the Bundrens do you think added least to the story?

 

[veggiedog]

Hello Gem,
I've given up on the languages thing because I don't know any more.

As for the Animal symbolism, well in Greek mythology the horse is sometimes associated with Poseidon - God of the seas. Who in the Odyssey, and in many more myths was portrayed as an angry turbulent God prone to a terrible temper - sound familiar?

There are also a few fish connections in Greek mythology, i.e. the constellation Pisces (sp?), mermaids, etc. Fish have been a symbol of life/rebirth/reincarnation as well as identification and emotional growth in many cultures.

I can't think of any other animals that were mentioned - oh except for a cow?! by Dewey Dell - it was something to do with milk? Although I guess that is pretty self explanatory considering Dewey Dell's condition.

Right...the cow is burdened with her milk and wants to be rid of it (she is waiting to be milked by Dewey Dell or Vardy) just as Dewey Dell is burdened by her pregnancy and wants to be rid of it?

Which one of the Bundrens do you think added least to the story?

Hmm...That's hard to say. I would say that most annoying Bundren, in my opinion, was Dewey Dell. She didn't have as much to add to basic storyline of Darl v. Jewel. Anse was important because by noting his behavior, we could attribute most of the family's problems and dynsfunction to him, as a bad father and husband. Darl and Jewel were both important to the words v. actions theme and were, after all, the central characters. Vardy gave a more innocent, childlike view of the family, and provided the fish symbol and a lot of the identity/existence issues, another theme. Addie, of course, gave us her entire words/actions theory and played an important role in how the family came to be the way it was. Cash gave a lot of explanation towards the end, which I think was very important (I wouldn't have trusted the information about Darl's arrest, Anse's remarriage, etc. from Vardy or Dewey Dell). So I would say that the character that added the least to the basic storyline was Dewey Dell. Her purpose seemed to be to add dysfunction. I can't think of any other way in which she was useful. She turned Darl in to Gillespie, I suppose, which was a turning point, but she didn't seem to do much else. She was too wrapped up in her own selfish needs to notice anyone or anything else.

Back to religious thing, I don't know if Faulkner intended to show religion in a negative light, or if that was just Cora's character. I'll look up whether or not Faulkner was devoutly religious person, or if he openly spat on it, and so on. What did you think about it?

Veggiedog