Differences Between Men and Women?

[novella]

Why do some women claim to 'think like a man'? It's always bothered me when women make that statement.

Are we all clones that are supposed to behave and think a certain way, lest we be thought of as less womanly? If you're a woman and you think a certain way, isn't it valid to say you are thinking like a woman? Maybe it's just another variation of being a woman.

I think I feel a rant coming on - but I'll resist.

Well, you're right. Rant away.

There's a big stink all over Lawrence Summers, the president of Harvard University, right now for making statements about women's "innate aptitude" (or lack thereof) in the hard sciences.

In fact, all he did was ask that a group of professional educators consider that, among other reasons, as a possible explanation for the gender imbalance in these fields. I don't really get what's wrong with that.

Brain scientists say there are real, observable gender differences in some processes. Psychologists say there are general differences in the ways men and women learn and approach problems, with women wanting a holistic approach, understanding the whole problem and then seeking a whole solution, and men preferring to work linearly--understand a bit, solve a bit, understand another bit, etc. Men do better in math in school, women do better in verbal skills.

These, as everyone acknowledges, are generalizations with many exceptions. There are also loads of possible explanations, including teacher prejudice, peer pressure, course structure, developmental differences at certain ages, corporate prejudices, family pressures, etc. Girls' math scores improve if the problems are given in a verbal format, apparently.

So, do you think Summers was wrong? Right?

Are the differences "real" at some level?

 

[cajunmama]

Well, you're right. Rant away.

There's a big stink all over Lawrence Summers, the president of Harvard University, right now for making statements about women's "innate aptitude" (or lack thereof) in the hard sciences.

In fact, all he did was ask that a group of professional educators consider that, among other reasons, as a possible explanation for the gender imbalance in these fields. I don't really get what's wrong with that.

Brain scientists say there are real, observable gender differences in some processes. Psychologists say there are general differences in the ways men and women learn and approach problems, with women wanting a holistic approach, understanding the whole problem and then seeking a whole solution, and men preferring to work linearly--understand a bit, solve a bit, understand another bit, etc. Men do better in math in school, women do better in verbal skills.

These, as everyone acknowledges, are generalizations with many exceptions. There are also loads of possible explanations, including teacher prejudice, peer pressure, course structure, developmental differences at certain ages, corporate prejudices, family pressures, etc. Girls' math scores improve if the problems are given in a verbal format, apparently.

So, do you think Summers was wrong? Right?

Are the differences "real" at some level?

There is a tendency with females toward more verbal, social areas, and a tendency with males toward spatial areas, but the big gender differences we see at the university is entirely societal. In early adolesence, girls and boys are beginning to be "interested " in each other. Just about this time, girls get a growth spurt that makes many of them a bit taller than most of the boys in this age group (the boys' corresponding growth spurt comes a couple of years later). So now you have a bunch of girls that are a bit self-concious. They do not want to attract any undue attention by excelling in math and science, where boys do tend to catch on quicker (what girl wants to show that she is smarter than the boy she likes?). I know it sounds simplistic, and there are other social factors that all push girls in the same direction. It is subtle, but it is definitely there. In all-girl schools, just as many girls excell in math and sciences as in literature and social sciences.

 

[jenn]

thank you ell and evie, i feel the same way, i was just having a hard time putting it into words.
i think there is a real "fear" in women to embrace our more feminine aspects. if we are strong and have opinions we are worried we will get labelled as radical feminists and if we are too emotional and empathetic, well then we are being "girlie". we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
an example that comes to mind. i used to live with 3 male roomates, and if i was watching a sad movie i would hide that i was crying or try not to. i wanted to seem tough or whatever. it was important that they didn't see me cry. and then it dawned on me, who cares, this is how i react to things. i cry. i cry when i am upset or angry or frustrated. it doesn't make me a wimp, it is just how my body is responding to a situation it finds stressful.
i agree that if i behave a certain way, or think a certain way, then i am behaving like a woman, because i am one.

 

[Jenem]

the fact that this thread is here is an indication that we all feel there are some inherant differences in the way that men and women think. i don't see what the problem is with the idea. it isn't to say every single man and woman think a certain way, it's just a generalization that i feel shouldn't be taken too seriously. i don't feel one way is better than another - they're just different.

to say i think like a man, means merely that i feel the way i think is more in common with the way people feel men think. i'm linear, i don't deal with emotions of a situation, i have a mathematical brain and i struggle to be less literal. but i love shoes and i love being a woman.

 

[Ell]

the fact that this thread is here is an indication that we all feel there are some inherant differences in the way that men and women think. i don't see what the problem is with the idea. it isn't to say every single man and woman think a certain way, it's just a generalization that i feel shouldn't be taken too seriously. i don't feel one way is better than another - they're just different.

to say i think like a man, means merely that i feel the way i think is more in common with the way people feel men think. i'm linear, i don't deal with emotions of a situation, i have a mathematical brain and i struggle to be less literal. but i love shoes and i love being a woman.

Jenem, I think I understand what you're saying. But by saying that, doesn't it play into the stereotype that all women are illogical, overly emotional, into fashion and other 'girlie' pursuits?

Of course there are differences between men and women and I appreciate them. However, it doesn't mean that women have to be apologists for having behaviours that society has deemed male. I just hate the pigeonholing of people, both male and female. I find it terrbily restrictive.

 

[Geenh]

You are right BUT there are innate difference between men and women and as a woman who is generally looked at as anything but, I see these difference with eyes wide open. There ARE generalisations and there ARE the proven physiological, brain and psychological differences. Rant away, I say. I trust you've never been mistaken for male. I have no trouble putting either gender in its own box because to me (and in the end, that's the opinion I follow) there are glaringly obvious differences in thought and in action.

 

[novella]

How about this observation:

Most women change their behavior in the presence of men, even those men who are not potential mates (fathers, teachers, brothers). This is observable from the age of about 12 through 60 or older. Their voices often go up a register or soften, their mannerisms become more stereotypically feminine, they laugh or giggle more, they defer to men in conversation, they cut other women off or disparage their remarks, they show a willingness to serve or play hostess, they become less dominant, somewhat coy.

Not all of these changes happen all the time, but almost always at least one or two of these changes occur. Two or three women are talking, in walks a man, and you can see the changes immediately. In fact, I can see some of these tendencies in certain posters behavior (not an attack, just an observation).

I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. The species has to keep going somehow, and flirtation is a basic tool toward procreation. Competition for mates is eternal. It's just a little comment.




I don't know whether men's behavior changes in the presence of women, as I am a woman and unable to observe the male-only behavior.

 

[Jenem]

Jenem, I think I understand what you're saying. But by saying that, doesn't it play into the stereotype that all women are illogical, overly emotional, into fashion and other 'girlie' pursuits?

no, i don't see why it does. it's the way people think, not what they think about. i liken women's love of fashion to men's love of cars. besides, i'm not saying ALL women or men are any certain way, or one person is entirely one way. i have some elements that i feel are feminine ways of thinking. i don't think women are illogical either (after all, aren't women the ones who always know it's time to stop for directions), it's just that more often (for women) emotion clouds logic. not a thing wrong with that (often it's better) but it's just a difference i notice.

Of course there are differences between men and women and I appreciate them. However, it doesn't mean that women have to be apologists for having behaviours that society has deemed male. I just hate the pigeonholing of people, both male and female. I find it terrbily restrictive.

i don't apologize for any of my behaviour society deems male and i don't think any woman should (nor should we apologize for being stereotypically female). it would be great if there were no gender labels on how people think. but there is, and some of them are there because a lot of people have noticed them. i agree a lot are based on societal conditioning, but they're there nonetheless.

as long as i know that neither way of thinking is any better than the other, i'm happy.

 

[bobbyburns]

there are women on this board? I called dibs.

 

[novella]

Ell, are you saying to talk about this at all plays into stereotypes?

I'm surprised the discussion became so serious. I was just intending to say a bunch of silly stuff about guys (like to dig holes, like smelly things, talk with their mouths full) and girls (will cut off an arm to lose 10 lbs, will spend their last 5 buck on Vogue).

Sure, these are terrible stereotypes, but they're also a little bit true, as all stereotypes are.

 

[Ice]

How about this observation:

Most women change their behavior in the presence of men, even those men who are not potential mates (fathers, teachers, brothers). This is observable from the age of about 12 through 60 or older. Their voices often go up a register or soften, their mannerisms become more stereotypically feminine, they laugh or giggle more, they defer to men in conversation, they cut other women off or disparage their remarks, they show a willingness to serve or play hostess, they become less dominant, somewhat coy.

Not all of these changes happen all the time, but almost always at least one or two of these changes occur. Two or three women are talking, in walks a man, and you can see the changes immediately. In fact, I can see some of these tendencies in certain posters behavior (not an attack, just an observation).

I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. The species has to keep going somehow, and flirtation is a basic tool toward procreation. Competition for mates is eternal. It's just a little comment.

I don't know whether men's behavior changes in the presence of women, as I am a woman and unable to observe the male-only behavior.

I agree, women do change their behaviour in the presence of men - its only natural. I have been reliably informed (well if you count Phil as reliable) that male behaviour also changes when around women (though apparently partners don't count )

 

[Ell]

Geenh, I don't disagree with what you say. I agree that there ARE differences between men and women, in general.

I think we are talking about different issues. I'm talking about women defining themselves as 'more like men' just because they're good at sciences, fixing things or reading a map. You don't hear men say they're more like women just because they're good at arts, cooking and communicating.

If you're only talking about physical appearance, that's a different matter.

 

[Jenem]

Geenh, I don't disagree with what you say. I agree that there ARE differences between men and women, in general.

I think we are talking about different issues. I'm talking about women defining themselves as 'more like men' just because they're good at sciences, fixing things or reading a map. You don't hear men say they're more like women just because they're good at arts, cooking and communicating.

If you're only talking about physical appearance, that's a different matter.

my sister's husband is a construction worker. he's extremely muscular and used to compete in underground fights for money. he has said to me before that he is 49% gay. it was a joke (obviously) but he said it when we were talking about how he loves to decorate the house, and he feels he can talk to women because he enjoys talking about feelings.

my uncle dies his hair, loves hanging out with women (he insisted on being at my wedding shower even though i told him there would be only women there) and he loves clothing and all things feminine (wears pink all the time). he is 100% straight, been married twice (to women), has been with his current wife for 13 years. he has no problem admitting he's a bit feminine - he says he's secure enough in his masculinity to admit it.

 

[Ell]

Ell, are you saying to talk about this at all plays into stereotypes?

No, just that women don't have to make the addendum they're 'like men' because of certain behaviours.

I guess I lived through an era where women were confined to very strict conventions of acceptable female behaviour and roles. I also lived through the struggles of women attaining equal opportunies (well almost) in what was an entirely male-dominiated world. I look around at society and the media today (music videos, movies, magazines) and see a regression in attitudes about women, in general. Rather, depressing. *sigh*

I'm surprised the discussion became so serious. I was just intending to say a bunch of silly stuff about guys (like to dig holes, like smelly things, talk with their mouths full) and girls (will cut off an arm to lose 10 lbs, will spend their last 5 buck on Vogue).

Sure, these are terrible stereotypes, but they're also a little bit true, as all stereotypes are.

Yes, they are. Sorry, novella.

How about:
- Guys smell their underwear to see if they REALLY need to change it.
- Gals make excuses to buy new underwear. What, a snag? Time for new lingerie!
- Guys would rather pee in a cup by their bed than get up to the bathroom in the middle of the night.
- Guys only need 2 pairs of shoes.
- 200 pairs are not enough for gals.

 

[Ell]

i don't apologize for any of my behaviour society deems male and i don't think any woman should (nor should we apologize for being stereotypically female). it would be great if there were no gender labels on how people think. but there is, and some of them are there because a lot of people have noticed them. i agree a lot are based on societal conditioning, but they're there nonetheless.

as long as i know that neither way of thinking is any better than the other, i'm happy.

I agree. Maybe I'm just reading too much into the statement 'like a man'.

 

[Ashlea]

I guess the problem is that men are more successful in business situations, so acting "like a man" means that you are more able to succeed by those rules, and are thus more valuable in certain ways.

 

[evie]

I'm with Ell. I'm young and very grateful to the women (and men) before me who won many of the battles for equality, but my generation is giving it all away. It disappoints me to hear women say they are "like men" to explain away differences in their personality or funtionality. Hm. I'm at a terrible loss for words right now, so I'll leave it at this.

 

[Jenem]

I guess the problem is that men are more successful in business situations, so acting "like a man" means that you are more able to succeed by those rules, and are thus more valuable in certain ways.

i work in a male dominated industry. i think the only reason that men are more successful in my field is that there are so many of them in it, and they're all "old school". they don't want to deal with you if you don't golf, and don't even bother talking to them about something they don't know- they won't even pay attention. they prefer to deal with men- they are comfortable with men. i think that the more women get into business, the more we will notice success. women have remarkable resilience and the ability to see the big picture (which make for excellent managerial skills). because we enjoy socializing, we make excellent salespeople. i think more women would be successful in business if we didn't already believe that we aren't meant for it. math schmath- i have a calculator.

 

[novella]

i work in a male dominated industry. i think the only reason that men are more successful in my field is that there are so many of them in it, and they're all "old school". they don't want to deal with you if you don't golf, and don't even bother talking to them about something they don't know- they won't even pay attention. they prefer to deal with men- they are comfortable with men..

When I was a managing editor, I had three associate editors reporting to me, all guys. The last one hired quit after about 6 months. I asked him why he was leaving so soon, and he said he didn't want to work in a "pink collar ghetto." I guess he just couldn't stand reporting to a woman.

 

[jenn]

math schmath- i have a calculator.

hear hear, sister friend!!!!! i am with you on this!