downthrough
New Member
novella said:
Wow! Thank you so much novella! Cheers!
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Haruki Murakami
- Thread starter laurenaefe
- Start date
Wow! Thank you so much novella! Cheers!
downthrough
New Member
Wow, I love this story! What a great, quick read! Thanks again!
A Wild Sheep Chase - some clarifications?
Warning - possible spoilers
"A Wild Sheep Chase" is the first Murakami I have read, and I bought "Sputnik Sweetheart" at the same time. From what I'm reading here, I'm gathering that many would suggest "Dance Dance Dance" as a better follow-up read to WSC, as it forms a type of sequel?
Just a few aspects I'd be interested in people's thoughts about:
1) The significance of the girl whose funeral takes place in the Prelude... does she have any connection with the rest of the plot, and particularly, is she in any way connected to / identifiable with his girlfriend with the lovely ears?
2) His partner and 'The Rat' - these are two separate individuals, right? Maybe this question shows how much I still have to understand...
3) Is there any point in looking at the details of his fevered dream in Chapter 41, 'Green Cords and Red Cords; Frozen Seagulls'?
4) At the very end, what frame of mind is he in? He is obviously relieved that the burden of the sheep chase is over, and he has his financial reward secured - but he has apparently lost his girlfriend forever (how much does he care?) ... and he sheds copious tears, but then, especially, how does anyone see his mood in those last three sentences AFTER the tears?
Look, these are just some of the main issues that occur to me right now... I know there will be others. Maybe I'm analysing too hard; I have to say that I really enjoyed the book and yet at times was frustrated by being unable to grasp it all (maybe the sign of a good read!) I know there are both the post-modern and East Asian world-view elements to consider in all of this too...
Don't anyone feel they have to respond to all of this - just a quote, delete anything you're not responding to, and give me any thoughts on even just one point, will be great!
Warning - possible spoilers
"A Wild Sheep Chase" is the first Murakami I have read, and I bought "Sputnik Sweetheart" at the same time. From what I'm reading here, I'm gathering that many would suggest "Dance Dance Dance" as a better follow-up read to WSC, as it forms a type of sequel?
Just a few aspects I'd be interested in people's thoughts about:
1) The significance of the girl whose funeral takes place in the Prelude... does she have any connection with the rest of the plot, and particularly, is she in any way connected to / identifiable with his girlfriend with the lovely ears?
2) His partner and 'The Rat' - these are two separate individuals, right? Maybe this question shows how much I still have to understand...
3) Is there any point in looking at the details of his fevered dream in Chapter 41, 'Green Cords and Red Cords; Frozen Seagulls'?
4) At the very end, what frame of mind is he in? He is obviously relieved that the burden of the sheep chase is over, and he has his financial reward secured - but he has apparently lost his girlfriend forever (how much does he care?) ... and he sheds copious tears, but then, especially, how does anyone see his mood in those last three sentences AFTER the tears?
Look, these are just some of the main issues that occur to me right now... I know there will be others. Maybe I'm analysing too hard; I have to say that I really enjoyed the book and yet at times was frustrated by being unable to grasp it all (maybe the sign of a good read!) I know there are both the post-modern and East Asian world-view elements to consider in all of this too...
Don't anyone feel they have to respond to all of this - just a quote, delete anything you're not responding to, and give me any thoughts on even just one point, will be great!
Ishel,
I'll form some thoughts on your questions in a bit but check back a page or two for the order the HM books were written. Indeed _Dance Dance Dance_ is a sequel, but certainly not mandatory to read right after _A Wild Sheep Chase_. Maybe it's even better to have some breathing space between them, just as HM did while writing them.
If I don't have to time to reply again today (busy day in the lab) I'll get back to you (hopefully) tomorrow.
j
I'll form some thoughts on your questions in a bit but check back a page or two for the order the HM books were written. Indeed _Dance Dance Dance_ is a sequel, but certainly not mandatory to read right after _A Wild Sheep Chase_. Maybe it's even better to have some breathing space between them, just as HM did while writing them.
If I don't have to time to reply again today (busy day in the lab) I'll get back to you (hopefully) tomorrow.
j
Stewart
Active Member
I actually thought that Dance Dance Dance was a poor novel. It was probably because I had not read A Wild Sheep Chase although there were other things in the novel that I'm surprised weren't questioned. It's also possible the translator was poor - if I read once more about shifting cultural snow I was going to burn the damn book.
**Warning - possible _A Wild Sheep Chase_ spoilers**
Hmmmm, not necessarily. Buttttt…
Does she have some profound similarities to the girl with the ears? Yes.
But if anything I think this is some great character set-up and development for the narrating character. While the _Hear the Wind Sing_ and _Pinball_ novels, which precede ‘Wild Sheep’, are scarce in English, in Japan the narrator was already known to the readers, so this prelude takes, I’ll call him “I”, back into the people’s minds.
For the uninitiated, very rarely does a reader learn so much about a character in a mere few pages.
Clearly he is a distant sort of chap.
He can not even recall an old girlfriend’s name. Even after reading it in the obituary.
“I’m having trouble talking.” Reveals quite a bit also.
To me, it set the scene for this ‘Murakami world’ we are about to enter, where girlfriends may say something eerie like, “Sometimes I get real lonely sleeping with you.”
Or ask you in the middle of the night, “Tell me, have you ever thought of killing me?”
And the foreshadowing of a “chase” is also evident: “The map [to get to her funeral] proved as helpful as a globe would have been.”
“How many times did I dream of catching a train at night? Always the same dream.”
All that said, I’m not one for getting too, too in-depth with analysis. And I am aware the Murakami is not too keen on it either.
Sometimes a dream is just a dream.
But sometimes it’s not.
Yes, certainly 2 separate guys. The Rat is also in the 2 above mentioned novels. As is J and his bar.
I’d guess parts of it means something, and parts not. Unfortunately it’s been some time since I’ve read this great novel, and flipping through it last night to make some comments for you didn’t really spark anything to comment about this dream specifically.
“Names change all the time”…names are motif that play throughout much of HM’s work, like with the cat and many of the characters not even having a name…
That’s for you to decide. Hearing the sound of waves may be soothing to some or frightful and overpowering to others.
In my view seeing J and giving him the check was an opportunity to get back to ‘normalcy’.
“And getting back to normal was everything.” (4th to last page)
Just some thoughts…
j
ishel said:
Hmmmm, not necessarily. Buttttt…
Does she have some profound similarities to the girl with the ears? Yes.
But if anything I think this is some great character set-up and development for the narrating character. While the _Hear the Wind Sing_ and _Pinball_ novels, which precede ‘Wild Sheep’, are scarce in English, in Japan the narrator was already known to the readers, so this prelude takes, I’ll call him “I”, back into the people’s minds.
For the uninitiated, very rarely does a reader learn so much about a character in a mere few pages.
Clearly he is a distant sort of chap.
He can not even recall an old girlfriend’s name. Even after reading it in the obituary.
“I’m having trouble talking.” Reveals quite a bit also.
To me, it set the scene for this ‘Murakami world’ we are about to enter, where girlfriends may say something eerie like, “Sometimes I get real lonely sleeping with you.”
Or ask you in the middle of the night, “Tell me, have you ever thought of killing me?”
And the foreshadowing of a “chase” is also evident: “The map [to get to her funeral] proved as helpful as a globe would have been.”
“How many times did I dream of catching a train at night? Always the same dream.”
All that said, I’m not one for getting too, too in-depth with analysis. And I am aware the Murakami is not too keen on it either.
Sometimes a dream is just a dream.
But sometimes it’s not.
ishel said:
Yes, certainly 2 separate guys. The Rat is also in the 2 above mentioned novels. As is J and his bar.
ishel said:
I’d guess parts of it means something, and parts not. Unfortunately it’s been some time since I’ve read this great novel, and flipping through it last night to make some comments for you didn’t really spark anything to comment about this dream specifically.
“Names change all the time”…names are motif that play throughout much of HM’s work, like with the cat and many of the characters not even having a name…
ishel said:
That’s for you to decide. Hearing the sound of waves may be soothing to some or frightful and overpowering to others.
In my view seeing J and giving him the check was an opportunity to get back to ‘normalcy’.
“And getting back to normal was everything.” (4th to last page)
Just some thoughts…
j
Warning - probably spoilers for "A Wild Sheep Chase"
Thanks for all your trouble with that detailed reply, Jay... much appreciated, and you've certainly helped me not only with Wild Sheep but also with some general principles for reading Murakami generally...
Now, that's some great context and background! I see that one of our local university libraries has both of those novels (I also see that Hear the Wind is available on eBay, but no sign of Pinball anywhere). Heh, there is that problem of what to call the characters in discussion - none of them have proper 'names' as such, do they?
So I guess that is reinforced when he can't recall his old girlfriend's name either.
He is definitely very distant, detached... It's almost as if, at times, that he is suffering from clinical depression; but he is very much a post-modern character, and I guess that detachment, that lack of commitment to anyone or anything as a matter of principle, is very much a post-modern trait...
Yes, eerie and disturbing, and yet without a sense of real threat or danger - it seems that this is merely talk without an expectation of active fulfillment.
Yes! I really get the sense that Murakami must not be over-analyzed! In keeping with recent trends of literary analysis, a novel speaks to the reader where s/he is as much as from the author's own context; and while it might be valid, even in this era, to deeply analyze writers of the modernist era, to do so with writers who have consciously adopted a post-modern stance is presumably futile. While I myself have some difficulties identifying with a post-modern world view, it is self-evident that to apply modernist approaches to an author who does so identify would be an exercise in futility.
For that reason also, I must get hold of those novels, and presumably before I tackle "Dance Dance Dance"... Mind you, my next Murakami will be "Sputnik Sweetheart", simply because I already bought it... Not yet, though...
Yes indeed... I found the lack of names disturbing at first, but got quite used to it over the course of the novel
Yes, I definitely see that I need to ponder that for myself... But I certainly see where you're coming from on his desire to return to 'normalcy' (and am happy that you see the need to put that word in inverted commas, in tribute to its origins with the rather pompius but inaccurate language of US President Warren G Harding!) You have this real sense that, wherever J's bar is located, it's the nearest thing 'he' has to home and a place of some personal security.
Well, thanks so much, as I say... I still have plenty to ponder there, but you've been a big help!
If anyone else wants to throw in their thoughts still, feel free!
Thanks for all your trouble with that detailed reply, Jay... much appreciated, and you've certainly helped me not only with Wild Sheep but also with some general principles for reading Murakami generally...
jay said:
Now, that's some great context and background! I see that one of our local university libraries has both of those novels (I also see that Hear the Wind is available on eBay, but no sign of Pinball anywhere). Heh, there is that problem of what to call the characters in discussion - none of them have proper 'names' as such, do they?
So I guess that is reinforced when he can't recall his old girlfriend's name either.He is definitely very distant, detached... It's almost as if, at times, that he is suffering from clinical depression; but he is very much a post-modern character, and I guess that detachment, that lack of commitment to anyone or anything as a matter of principle, is very much a post-modern trait...
Yes, eerie and disturbing, and yet without a sense of real threat or danger - it seems that this is merely talk without an expectation of active fulfillment.
Yes! I really get the sense that Murakami must not be over-analyzed! In keeping with recent trends of literary analysis, a novel speaks to the reader where s/he is as much as from the author's own context; and while it might be valid, even in this era, to deeply analyze writers of the modernist era, to do so with writers who have consciously adopted a post-modern stance is presumably futile. While I myself have some difficulties identifying with a post-modern world view, it is self-evident that to apply modernist approaches to an author who does so identify would be an exercise in futility.
For that reason also, I must get hold of those novels, and presumably before I tackle "Dance Dance Dance"... Mind you, my next Murakami will be "Sputnik Sweetheart", simply because I already bought it... Not yet, though...
Yes indeed... I found the lack of names disturbing at first, but got quite used to it over the course of the novel
Yes, I definitely see that I need to ponder that for myself... But I certainly see where you're coming from on his desire to return to 'normalcy' (and am happy that you see the need to put that word in inverted commas, in tribute to its origins with the rather pompius but inaccurate language of US President Warren G Harding!) You have this real sense that, wherever J's bar is located, it's the nearest thing 'he' has to home and a place of some personal security.
Well, thanks so much, as I say... I still have plenty to ponder there, but you've been a big help!
If anyone else wants to throw in their thoughts still, feel free!
More 'Wild Sheep' plot revealers...
‘Wind’ indeed can be found on eBay from time to time and it’s generally pretty cheap. _Pinball_ surfaces occasionally and fetches, well, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it sell for less than $400.
These are simply little tiny OOP English books printed in Japan. Essentially made for those leaning English, as there are Japanese notes in the back. Murakami has yet to feel any desire to have a more comprehensive or ‘authorized’ translation to be printed and distributed world-wide. And the same with many of his short stories and travel writing. Maybe one day…
Anyway, you can print up a copy of _Pinball_ from HERE
Not even the cat, for a time.
This is a re-occurring (the name-thing, but cats too) theme in the World of HM.
Yes. In many ways I read HM like I watch David Lynch. And just as DL doesn’t do ‘director commentaries’ for the DVD market, HM doesn’t talk a lot about the…’mysterious’ point of his stories.
To me, the ‘sheep man’ is much like ‘the cowboy’ in Lynch’s _Mulholland Drive_ and I’m fine with that, I don’t need to know every minute detail.
Sometimes there is no ‘why’, there just is.
Go for it. Great stuff.
Very much so. Not that he needed a monetary ‘investment’ in it, for a personal one is more meaningful, but now the ‘ownership’ is also there.
Keep putting up your thoughts of the HM books you read in the present/future.
Have fun,
j
ishel said:
‘Wind’ indeed can be found on eBay from time to time and it’s generally pretty cheap. _Pinball_ surfaces occasionally and fetches, well, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it sell for less than $400.
These are simply little tiny OOP English books printed in Japan. Essentially made for those leaning English, as there are Japanese notes in the back. Murakami has yet to feel any desire to have a more comprehensive or ‘authorized’ translation to be printed and distributed world-wide. And the same with many of his short stories and travel writing. Maybe one day…
Anyway, you can print up a copy of _Pinball_ from HERE
Heh, there is that problem of what to call the characters in discussion - none of them have proper 'names' as such, do they?
Not even the cat, for a time.
This is a re-occurring (the name-thing, but cats too) theme in the World of HM.
Yes. In many ways I read HM like I watch David Lynch. And just as DL doesn’t do ‘director commentaries’ for the DVD market, HM doesn’t talk a lot about the…’mysterious’ point of his stories.
To me, the ‘sheep man’ is much like ‘the cowboy’ in Lynch’s _Mulholland Drive_ and I’m fine with that, I don’t need to know every minute detail.
Sometimes there is no ‘why’, there just is.
Go for it. Great stuff.
Very much so. Not that he needed a monetary ‘investment’ in it, for a personal one is more meaningful, but now the ‘ownership’ is also there.
Keep putting up your thoughts of the HM books you read in the present/future.
Have fun,
j
I go for " just being coy".jay said:
Hah! You really gonna reread it? I never reread books!!! Not time!jay said:I will stick with my thoughts on it until I reread it and just claim that Noru is an ‘unrealizable narrator’, as he’s telling us a story that happened some 20 years ago!
What makes you say that?jay said:
Hmmm, you mean "But you don't know me!" is taken out from "King Lear"? Then we all quote "King Lear" alot, don't we?jay said:Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh! But you don’t know me!
Straight out of “King Lear”…
Maya said:
Not right away, but I do go back to enjoyable books from time to time, especially when the newer stuff is depressingly bad.
[the Midori relationship didn’t work]
In the preface, when he’s much older, he certainly seems to be a detached kind of guy, and there is no mention of a Midori or even a wife.
Hmmm, you mean "But you don't know me!" is taken out from "King Lear"? Then we all quote "King Lear" alot, don't we?
[/QUOTE]I meant the Fool in King Lear!
j
Really? I stick to the newer "depressingly bad" stuff rather than rereading.jay said:
True. But he might have stayied with her for 19 years or almost 20, and then kind of felt "lonely" and decided to tell us his story? Hence the not mentioning of Midori.
Still didn't get it..?
francesca
New Member
I'm trying to read everything I can lay my hands on by Murakami, The Wind Up Bird Chronicle was a random choice made by a friend for something we could read together and talk about, as soon as I started it I was totally hooked.
The problem I have is actually putting into words what I feel about his writing, the books themselves kind of defy any real definition but on the other hand they can be over-analysed to the nth degree.
I love the fatalistic feel of them, and I'm wondering if this is a particularly Japanese thing, or whether maybe the style is something to do with the way the language translates. I'm asking this because the Oe book I have just started has exactly that style and feel about it, I know very little about Japanese literature, but would really like to explore it further now. If anyone has any suggestions for further reading, I'd love to hear them.
The problem I have is actually putting into words what I feel about his writing, the books themselves kind of defy any real definition but on the other hand they can be over-analysed to the nth degree.
I love the fatalistic feel of them, and I'm wondering if this is a particularly Japanese thing, or whether maybe the style is something to do with the way the language translates. I'm asking this because the Oe book I have just started has exactly that style and feel about it, I know very little about Japanese literature, but would really like to explore it further now. If anyone has any suggestions for further reading, I'd love to hear them.
I haven’t read:
Natsuo Kirino
Kenzo Kitakata
But they are 2 contemp Japanese that are pretty prominent.
I’ve read _In the Miso Soup_ by Ryu Murakami and, well, it started out good than then got not-so great middle on. A quick read though and more interesting than much that is currently selling.
j
Natsuo Kirino
Kenzo Kitakata
But they are 2 contemp Japanese that are pretty prominent.
I’ve read _In the Miso Soup_ by Ryu Murakami and, well, it started out good than then got not-so great middle on. A quick read though and more interesting than much that is currently selling.
j
novella
Active Member
I'm about a third through A Wild Sheep Chase, and I'm really enjoying it, so I thought I'd resurrect this thread, which I intend to read more closely when I'm done so I don't hit any spoilers.
I've only read short pieces by Murakami before this. One thing that niggles at my brain is the 'american-ness' of the details. I wish I knew what was introduced by the translator and what was written originally by Murakami. I really prefer to read very literal translations and I hope a lot of Western modes of thinking weren't introduced in the translation.
Thoughts on this appreciated.
I've only read short pieces by Murakami before this. One thing that niggles at my brain is the 'american-ness' of the details. I wish I knew what was introduced by the translator and what was written originally by Murakami. I really prefer to read very literal translations and I hope a lot of Western modes of thinking weren't introduced in the translation.
Thoughts on this appreciated.