Haruki Murakami

[jay]

I'm about a third through A Wild Sheep Chase, and I'm really enjoying it

Good to hear. A great read.

One thing that niggles at my brain is the 'american-ness' of the details. I wish I knew what was introduced by the translator and what was written originally by Murakami. I really prefer to read very literal translations and I hope a lot of Western modes of thinking weren't introduced in the translation.

Jay Rubin, a translator of Murakami, has a book out called _Haruki Murakami and the Music of Words_ where he discusses some of this in detail. Definitely worth a read if you start getting more into HM.
Alfred Birnbaum, translator of ‘Sheep’ and ‘Wind-up Bird’ is accredited with some changes, first and foremost the titles. ‘Sheep’ being a sort of play on “a wild goose chase” and “wind-up bird” being a very non-Japanese term.

I believe Rubin states he had a few problems with ‘Sheep’, or maybe moreso ‘things I would have done differently’, so much so that he talked of re-translating it for a newer edition.

My Japanese is non-existent, so I can’t compare for myself, but one of HM’s big critical complaints in his homeland is that he writes very ‘American-like’.
When it comes to the English translations, HM seems overall pretty pleased. So much so that in a way he confirms these, the English, are the definitive texts. When other languages translate it into their language, they work from, by HM’s request (maybe demand), the English (i.e. *not* the original Japanese) text.
So if you read Murakami in German you’re essentially reading a translation of a translation.

Post up your thoughts on ‘Sheep’ when you’re finished.
j

 

[Stewart]

I wish I'd read A Wild Sheep Chase. The sequel Dance Dance Dance made no mention that it was a followup to A Wild Sheep Chase.

 

[jay]

I wish I'd read A Wild Sheep Chase. The sequel Dance Dance Dance made no mention that it was a followup to A Wild Sheep Chase.

While I can picture it standing on it’s own, just as a few of the characters in ‘Sheep’ are introduced/used in 2 previous, not-well-circulated-in-English, novels I would have to imagine it _is_ a bit like walking into the middle of a David Lynch movie…

Maybe give ‘Sheep’ a whirl and if you feel like it, a re-read of Dance-cubed.

 

[francesca]

While I can picture it standing on it’s own, just as a few of the characters in ‘Sheep’ are introduced/used in 2 previous, not-well-circulated-in-English, novels I would have to imagine it _is_ a bit like walking into the middle of a David Lynch movie…

Maybe give ‘Sheep’ a whirl and if you feel like it, a re-read of Dance-cubed.

I think part of why I love HM's work is exactly because it is like a David Lynch movie! I still have a few of his to read, and I didn't know either that 'Dance' was a follow up to 'Sheep', so I am going to have to follow that advice as well.

I saw this post at the weekend and hadn't had the time I wanted to reply. I was going to do a little research on it this morning, because I suspected that HM's style of writing was just that, and nothing to do with the translation. I see Jay has saved me the work and added in yet another book that I'd like to read.

( Not wanting to hijack this thread but I'm getting quite interested in how books translate into other languages - having just taken some baby steps in reading in Italian, I've already noticed a difference between the non-Italian books translated into Italian, and an Italian original, the flow and use of language is sometimes very marked. I expect this is obvious to all of you who are used to reading in a second language, but its added a new dimension of interest for me..)

 

[jay]

( Not wanting to hijack this thread but I'm getting quite interested in how books translate into other languages

Not to further add to your To Be Read pile but:
You may get a kick out of Umberto Eco’s _Mouse or Rat: Translation as Negotiation_ (published only in the UK – and it’s in its original English (2004)), a collection of essays and lectures on his first-hand experience with translation(s) (into several languages) and some neat language stuffs.

 

[Stewart]

I'm getting quite interested in how books translate into other languages

Have a read of Umberto Eco's Mouse or Rat?. It deals with the subject of translation beginning with the problem of translating War and Peace into different languages.

As he says, to paraphrase him, the opening chapter contains a lot of French due to its use in upper class Russian circles at the time of its setting. Translating the book to English the French doesn't become a problem as French is still viewed as a common language which many English readers will be able to understand - you can leave the French intact in the translation. However, if releasing the book in China then very few would have experience of French so the Russian would, appropriately, be translated to Chinese (catchall for Mandarin or Cantonese) but to get the idea of this exotic language spoken French would be no use. The solution, therefore, is to translate the French phrases to English so that the Chinese translation features English. The problem as Eco says, is what happens when you want to translate War and Peace into French? Conclusion: there cannot be an authentic translation of War and Peace in French.

He then goes on with his own books and other literary classics as he discusses the process of not translating verbatim but translating culturally. A couple of examples:

• When translating The Name of the Rose into Russian he worked with his translator to replace the Latin phrases in the book with culturally relevant phrases that would fit the narrative in Old Church Slavonic. The phrases, therefore, were not translated but replaced with something fitting for the culture receiving the text.
• With Foucault's Pendulum there was a scene, in the original Italian, which made allusion to a phrase known to most Italians but would be lost on anyone outside of Italy who hadn't grown up with the phrase. That's why, in the English verision a reference is placed to an English poem as it would be expected that English speakers would understand.
• Baudolino begins with an insult in Italian but problems arose when translating it to other languages. The German translation was too bland, the English translation was too strong, the Spanish had no equivalent. etc. The translation, in these cases, involved improvising.

The cultural translation works when the author works with his/her translators. Eco's Arabic translator didn't work with him and the book was released in the Middle East with the new title Sex in the Monastery.

 

[Stewart]

Ah, jay got there first.

 

[clueless]

The problem as Eco says, is what happens when you want to translate War and Peace into French? Conclusion: there cannot be an authentic translation of War and Peace in French.

Yes, there is. I have a translation of War and Peace in French and, as the translator says, Tolstoi's French is peculiar, to say the least, so it is still different from the Russian text translated to French.

And when someone translates something to Chinese, it is translated to Chinese, not to Mandarin or Cantonese. Chinese writing is not phonetic and the same symbols - which represent objects and concepts, not sounds- are used for all Chinese languages and dialects. So someone learning Mandarin will not understand spoken Cantonese but can read text written by a Cantonese speaker.

 

[francesca]

Thanks Jay and Stewart, I will definitely try and get that. Strange that it is Eco, because when I first decided to have a go at reading in Italian, the first book I bought was Foucault's Pendulum in the original language..how stupidly ambitious was I??!! I keep it handy as my long-term challenge. Last night an Italian friend very excitedly told me that he had just bought the Da Vinci Code, and I could borrow it as soon as he has finished it....I feigned great enthusiasm as it was nice of him to think of me.

 

[jay]

the first book I bought was Foucault's Pendulum in the original language..

Not being a big fan of Eco’s fiction I’ll add this to your pile:
_Se una notte d'inverno un viaggiatore_ (1979) [English title: If on a Winter's Night a Traveler] by Italo Calvino.
A must (in any language).

night an Italian friend very excitedly told me that he had just bought the Da Vinci Code, and I could borrow it as soon as he has finished it....

You sure that’s a “friend”?

 

[Stewart]

And when someone translates something to Chinese, it is translated to Chinese, not to Mandarin or Cantonese.

I don't really care; I just used Chinese, as I said, as a catchall for Mandarin and Cantonese.

 

[Stewart]

_Se una notte d'inverno un viaggiatore_ (1979) [English title: If on a Winter's Night a Traveler] by Italo Calvino.
A must (in any language).

I tried to suggest that but the site crashed on me. Calvino's works are much smaller and, if wanting Italian fiction, he had a steady collection of short and long works.

 

[francesca]

I tried to suggest that but the site crashed on me. Calvino's works are much smaller and, if wanting Italian fiction, he had a steady collection of short and long works.

I just lost my reply too, damn
These suggestions are just what I need, until now I have been randomly buying and needed some structure, so I welcome the input. I feel like a sort of Italian version of Sheila Graham with a couple of Ernest Hemingways, this forum is so good.

(I feel a bit bad about HM though, I didnt mean to hijack this as he deserves his own space)

ok, lets try this again..........

 

[Stewart]

Primo Levi, too, I'm sure Murakami would say.

 

[novella]

I think the Levi connection, if there is one, is a guy thing, or a perceived guy thing. I just don't see it at all. I've only read two PL collections, so maybe I'm missing something, but PL speaks to the guy angst almost in a separate place. Pkus. he's a WWII guy, which puts him in a completely different zone.

Anyway, as far as I've gotten in Wild Sheep, I'm thinking Murakami stands alone, stylistically, only based on my experience so far--with both him and those he brings to mind.


Geesh, I have to say I browsed through the nabe before and I wish people would contribute some ideas here. When I come here, my first thought is that everyone is in high school. Maybe I'm on the wrong site.

 

[jay]

Anyway, as far as I've gotten in Wild Sheep, I'm thinking Murakami stands alone, stylistically, only based on my experience so far--with both him and those he brings to mind.

I agree. I can’t really place him with anyone else. If absolutely pressed I would say Paul Auster.
I _do_ see him cinematically in-line with a David Lynch. And HM himself has stated several times that he’s only really be interested in a film version of his books interpreted by Lynch or Woody Allen.
Although a few of his shorts has been adapted to screen by Japanese filmmakers.

Geesh, I have to say I browsed through the nabe before and I wish people would contribute some ideas here. When I come here, my first thought is that everyone is in high school. Maybe I'm on the wrong site.

(what’s a nabe?)
But I agree. I can understand if this were a ‘fantasy’ or ‘horror’ message board and then seeing most of what people read…but it’s wide open to ALL books. And yes, while I think some of us simply in our 30s are The Old Timers here, I _do_ see it as just a play on your first thought:
Most are just reading at the level of high school.
As I’ve stated elsewhere: literacy is dying.
j

 

[francesca]

I agree. I can’t really place him with anyone else. If absolutely pressed I would say Paul Auster.
I _do_ see him cinematically in-line with a David Lynch. And HM himself has stated several times that he’s only really be interested in a film version of his books interpreted by Lynch or Woody Allen

I'm thinking about Lost Highway, one of my favourite Lynch films, and how close it is in style to HM. I would really love to see a Lynchian treatment of Dance Dance Dance, it's exactly the right material.

And yes, while I think some of us simply in our 30s are The Old Timers here ....j

Oh dear, what's the next stage after Old Timers for those of us who's 30's are a distant memory??

 

[jay]

I'm thinking about Lost Highway, one of my favourite Lynch films, and how close it is in style to HM.

Yes. I agree. The simple fact that some things just don’t need explanation.
Many people -people that are stated to have a “good imagination” because they read pap like (most) science fiction and (all) fantasy-shit, continually ask questions. For ‘Sheep’ they don’t “get” the sheep-man. For Lynch they want to know more about Ben or Frank (Dean Stockwell, Dennis Hopper, respectively [Blue Velvet] and “who/what is the homeless person in the alley?” [Mulholland Drive].

Not everything has to be defined: this wanker has pointy ears, so he’s an “elf”, which means he can do zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz; little Hairy has a mark on his head, this means…he’s destined to become a serial rapists of small mammals (Book 8, kids. I got an advance copy…).
And again, these are the people that think they have “great imaginations”…

I’m basically continuing the theme(s) I was getting at in the “reading and intelligence” (or whatever it’s called) thread…

I would really love to see a Lynchian treatment of Dance Dance Dance, it's exactly the right material.

I am not a big fan of what passes for cinema and I never go see flicks adapted from books I like, but I _would_ be interested in a Lynch HM adaptation. DL doesn’t do many interviews, but I wonder if he’s ever read HM…last I saw his official site was pay-for, and he’s a pretty reclusive guy so may not have a Q&A offer anyway…

Oh dear, what's the next stage after Old Timers for those of us who's 30's are a distant memory??

Would you like to take a look at our fine catalogue for caskets or urns?

And I’m tempted to re-pharse myself and state that it’s a “grade school” level…
j

 

[francesca]

Yes. I agree. The simple fact that some things just don’t need explanation.

This is one of the things I love about Lynch and one of the things I love about HM. When we were showing Lost Highway at the centre I worked in the UK, so many people expected an explanation as to what had 'happened' in this film and 'how' could certain things have happened. Its really difficult to explain to people that not everything requires or even has an explanation, some things should just be experienced for their own sake, rather like standing back and letting an experience just become part of you and accepting it as it is for itself.

It takes a real artist to pull this off though, I've seen so many bad attempts to be deliberately obtuse in film, if genuine imagination isnt there, it isn't going to happen. For me, the things that set us apart as human beings are the gift of imagination and the ability to accept things beyond our experience, tis a pity we don't use those gifts as often as we could.

I am not a big fan of what passes for cinema

I'm sorry to hear that, is this cinema in general or Hollwood in particular?

Would you like to take a look at our fine catalogue for caskets or urns? j

Only if you have those trendy wicker (waste paper) basket caskets...I've wasted money all my life, why let death interrupt the habit of a lifetime?

 

[novella]

Impressions of a Wild Sheep Chase

I finished reading this novel yesterday and was left with such a sense of incompleteness. Thinking about it, the novel fell short in a couple of important ways. First, the main character was so passive and anonymous that I felt less and less invested in his outcome as the book progressed. Rather than becoming involved in his quest, he seemed not to really care about what happened one way or the other and was only pressed into the quest by his nameless girlfriend, another person who floated through the narrative without an anchor. So, the emotional landscape was flat and airless. His connections with anyone, including the Rat, the partner, and J were inexplicably without content or story.

And then there is the denouement, which similarly was uneventful, unexplained, and a bit of a cheat. I don't need to be spoonfed plot, but it seems to me that the whole ghost-character ending, with primarly people disappearing and the protagonist not really caring about anything was a nonstory. It's so convenient for an author to walk out on the story, which feels like what happened here.

In Wild Sheep Chase Murakami neglects to do the two most difficult tasks of writing a novel: building characters that are worth the reader's investment and tying up a plot satisfactorily, with a narrative arc that leads the reader to at least a brief moment of recognition, if not a feeling of closure.

You could argue, of course, that these ideas about what a novel should be are too conventional and conservative. I just happen to like novels that pull these two difficult tasks off, and Wild Sheep Chase just doesn't do either.

Murakami has a gift for the odd detail, and his philosophical ruminations are pretty interesting, almost enough to carry the book. I don't mind not having answers to all the open questions left at the end of the story, but, to me, it seems like he missed an opportunity to drop a few pieces into the right places. I think not doing that is almost cowardly: better to be cryptic and inexplicable than to elucidate something that in the end risks sounding pedestrian. If every fiction author thought this way, I might have to give up reading fiction altogether.


Still, I'm tempted to try Wind-up Bird Chronicle anyway. His writing style is intriguing, and maybe the failed aspects of WSC are unique to this book.