Haruki Murakami

[jay]

Maybe I should listen to the song before reading the book.

Not necessary.
I couldn’t (thankfully) place the song myself, but when I read the book I looked into the lyrics just in case HM used them in any significant way within the story.
I’d have to say he did not.

But for the curious, here they are.

“I once had a girl,
Or should I say
She once had me.
She showed me her room,
Isn’t it good?
Norwegian wood.
She asked me to stay and she told me to sit anywhere,
So I looked around and I noticed there wasn’t a chair.
I sat on a rug
Biding my time,
Drinking her wine.
We talked until two,
And then she said,
‘It’s time for bed’.
She told me she worked in the morning and started to laugh,
I told her I didn’t, and crawled off to sleep in the bath.
And when I awoke
I was alone,
This bird has flown,
So I lit a fire,
Isn’t it good?
Norwegian wood.”

And these guys are credited with being great song writers…ho hum.

j

 

[Maya]

I just finished reading "Norwegian Wood", and sorry all Murakami fans, but I really didn't get what's so spectacular about this book. I felt the book was a little immature... too much blahblahblah going on. I am dissapointed!!! Maybe I missed the point, but I really don't think I did.

Why the hell did Watanabe jump into bed with Reiko??? What was that all about? I get that sex played an important role in this book, but Godness. Reiko and Naoko... I don't know where to start, first of all the "rape-issue" Reiko told about, no need to blame the little girl, she (Reiko) wasn't innocent herself, she's over 30 and can't control herself??? Sex with a 15 year old girl, when you're obviously not lesbian, DON'T JUST HAPPEN!!! I felt no sympathy concerning her, that's for sure.
Naoko, is a drama-queen, I knew she would commit suicide, just wished she did it a little earlier on.
And Midori: "My parent's didn't love me..." Well why don't you jump off a cliff?

 

[jay]

Why the hell did Watanabe jump into bed with Reiko???

Aside from your choice of verb being *way* off, “sex”, as you say, can also be heavily influenced and built on emotion; clearly the soft undertow of the story was the “love” (if you will) between Reiko and Toru.

What was that all about?

Emotional, possibly spiritual bonding; a special relationship between two people.
Maybe you would have preferred it to be about simple “fucking” like 80% of other stories?

I get that sex played an important role in this book

Not too, too much, but yeah, it’s pretty much a ‘coming of age’ story.
Pun not necessarily intended.

no need to blame the little girl, she (Reiko) wasn't innocent herself, she's over 30 and can't control herself???

Reiko seemed aware of her (guilty) participation in the act.
Clearly the girl, put aside the age factor for a moment, was the instigator and was some kind of…presence of not-quite-right in the world (and in this area it may be easier to, um, swallow, having read of Murakri books)

While it goes down a slightly different alley: are you under the impression that only a male can force one to do something against the other’s will?

Naoko, is a drama-queen, I knew she would commit suicide, just wished she did it a little earlier on.

While I wasn’t too involved with (so to speak) Naoko I didn’t feel _that_ harshly. I just thought there should have come a time where Toru, well, abandoned her.
But maybe he didn’t/couldn’t because that was his connection to Reiko.

And Midori: "My parent's didn't love me..." Well why don't you jump off a cliff?

Well, I’m surprised that you decided to read the whole book since you were clearly not enjoying or appreciating ANY of the characters.

Which is probably why I would never recommend _this_ particular book to a complete stranger.
Easily, I would point someone, as in introductory to HM, to _The Wild Sheep Cheese_. Easily. No question.
A completely different style of writing and storytelling. If you need a pitch: Raymond Chandler meets David Lynch.

NWood is one of HM’s more ‘normal’ books. But many people prefer their ‘normal’ writing in a different style. Personally I detest the usual ‘coming of age’ story. I would have no problem having a bonfire with the dreadful _Catcher in the Rye_ (I appreciate it broke ground for when it came out but it’s been far eclipsed and Holden is simply a whining little twat), Chabon’s _Mysteries in Pittsburgh, Auster’s _Moon Palace_, among others.
But Murakari’s stories work for me. I can appreciate the metaphors and symbolism, however hidden, and engaging (to me) characters.
But
It takes all kinds, which is why most bookstores are full of well, mostly shit.

Sorry to hear you disliked it. Do try Wild Sheep sometime. Very, very different. If you like that then I can point out which of his books are in that style (and one is a direct sequel).

Better luck next time,
j

 

[Maya]

I'm really truly sorry jay, maybe I shouldn't have been so negative.
I finished reading this book, because I always do so, no matter how bad a book might be.
I liked Watanabe's room-mate, he was a lot of fun, and Nagasawa was a well drawn character. At first I liked Midori, that she said what she felt on the spot, but it got too much of it at the end. So was the case of a lot of other things I liked with this book, when I reached the end I felt Murakami overdid it..

Emotional, possibly spiritual bonding; a special relationship between two people.
Maybe you would have preferred it to be about simple “fucking” like 80% of other stories?

I don't see why sex was necessary to create the spiritual and emotional bonding between Reiko and Watanabe. People have special relationships, without having sex too. I just felt it didn't fit in.

While it goes down a slightly different alley: are you under the impression that only a male can force one to do something against the other’s will?

No. Had it been a guy at the age of 15 instead of a girl, I would have had the same opinion as in the first post.

While I wasn’t too involved with (so to speak) Naoko I didn’t feel _that_ harshly. I just thought there should have come a time where Toru, well, abandoned her.But maybe he didn’t/couldn’t because that was his connection to Reiko.

Hold on there. I disagree, I think that sounds absurd. Nowhere in the book did I get that impression. Can you explain that further? He didn't leave Naoko because if he did, he couldn't keep in touch with Reiko?? Seriously, where did you get that from? I felt the relationship between Reiko and Watanabe wasn't more than just friendly. Actually I felt they didn't have a relationship at all, they just knew one another because of Naoko. That's why I reacted as I did, when they suddenly out of nowhere decided to have sex, no feelings involved, no nothing: "I want sex", "Ya, mee too".

It takes all kinds, which is why most bookstores are full of well, mostly shit.

I'm sorry, I don't think I understood you quite right. Are you trying to say that what everyone else reads is shit? Well, then it sure must be good to be you, not having to read shit, huh?

By the way, I'll give "Wild Sheep" a try some day.

 

[jay]

**potential SPOILER STUFFS to those that may wish to read _Norwegian Wood_**

I'm really truly sorry jay, maybe I shouldn't have been so negative.

No sweat. I didn’t write it. Or even recommend it.
Some books work for some, some don’t.
You wanna see “negative”, I’ll tear into Stephen King or some other hack for you

I finished reading this book, because I always do so, no matter how bad a book might be.

Ah. I stopped doing that many years ago. There are too many other books I want to read than to waste time involved in something that doesn’t grab me.
A writer’s job is to keep my attention.

I don't see why sex was necessary to create the spiritual and emotional bonding between Reiko and Watanabe. People have special relationships, without having sex too. I just felt it didn't fit in.

Very true. Sex is more often than not a vacant experience. For me, here, it worked.

Can you explain that further? He didn't leave Naoko because if he did, he couldn't keep in touch with Reiko?? Seriously, where did you get that from? I felt the relationship between Reiko and Watanabe wasn't more than just friendly.

Merely speculation on my part. Hence my use of “maybe”.
Possibly he did not even realise this.
But Reiko _was_ his conduit to Naoko. Eventually everything with Naoko was cut off and there was just communication with Reiko.
Speaking from experience, and possibly for many males, the allure of an older woman (don’t forget Toru is…18 (? – don’t have book with me)) can be pretty tantalizing. No doubt she was smart, a figure of authority and some knowledge, a bit mysterious and pretty.
Cue Van Halen’s “Hot for Teacher”, if you will.

Actually I felt they didn't have a relationship at all, they just knew one another because of Naoko.

Once he met her he hade MUCH more of a relation with Reiko than he did with Naoko. I have to think that the few quite night walks with Reiko *far* out-surpasses a blow-job in a grassy area…maybe that’s just me.

Are you trying to say that what everyone else reads is shit? Well, then it sure must be good to be you, not having to read shit, huh?

(Glancing at current NYTimes bestseller list)
Yes, what most people read, if they read, is indeed shit.

But as I said, thankfully the books stores have some books that, well, reek less.

But no, it’s not great being me, and occasionally I encounter “shit” and I put it down, assault it with a whiffle ball bat and/or just pass it along via bookcrossing.com

By the way, I'll give "Wild Sheep" a try some day.

Please do.

 

[Maya]

Once he met her he hade MUCH more of a relation with Reiko than he did with Naoko. I have to think that the few quite night walks with Reiko *far* out-surpasses a blow-job in a grassy area…maybe that’s just me.

I think I understand what you mean, but I was thinking about the whole relationship between Naoko and him, because what they had was more than the "grassy area experience". I felt Watanabe was passive on the night walks, I felt Reiko was more dominant and it was more about her, than them. It might just be me.

 

[starchild42]

Again - ****spoilers****

But maybe he didn’t/couldn’t because that was his connection to Reiko.

I always saw it the other way around: Reiko was Toru's last connection to Naoko.

Toru could never be with Naoko properly while she was alive. Then she died and there was no chance of closure - and this was pretty obviously the big thing that was holding him back from starting the relationship with Midori (who, I thought was a really cool chick, and suited Toru much better than Naoko ever did.)

Toro sleeping with Reiko - the last link to Naoko, always seemed, to me, some kind of a way for him to move on, to finally get Naoko out of his system, move on with his life, be with Midori without guilt, whatever. And, for Reiko too. Moving on with her life, the last link with her time in the sanctuary...

It's a kind of recurring theme throughout the book: Toru and Naoko bought together through the death of Kizuki; then Toru and Reiko bought together via the death of Naoko.

Once he met her he hade MUCH more of a relation with Reiko than he did with Naoko. I have to think that the few quite night walks with Reiko *far* out-surpasses a blow-job in a grassy area…maybe that’s just me.

It's not just you.
And, I agree with you.
Think about the relationship between Naoko and Toru. They hardly ever talked, because she could never find the words. Reiko and Toru talked incessantly, about everything, opened up to each other, told each other a helluva lot. On that premise, they were probably more likely to end up together than he and Naoko ever were...

It did seem a bit odd, at first, the whole Toru/Reiko episode, but, when I re-read that part - it's actually one of the, if not *the* nicest encounter of its type in the whole book. No baggage, no strings, no suicides - just two people enjoying each other, two consenting adults, using the experience to close various chapters in their lives, both getting much more out of the whole thing than a simple roll in the hay...(or wherever)

Maya, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it. I really found it to be one of those books that isn't what it seems on the surface - certainly not simply about some 18 year old guy just sleeping around.

I would challenge anyone to read the chapter where Toru looks after Midori's father in the hospital without being moved in some way. Or where Naoko comes to Toru in the night and he spends what seems like hours running his hand over her body, remembering every little detail.

These are just two of the moments that really stood out to me, and Murakami writes both of them with effortless beauty. NW is just as much about the writing style, the way he paints the whole picture, than the actual plot. To me, anyway.

But, as J says - try Wild Sheep Chase. NW isn't a typical Murakami, (content-wise) and I think you'll be surprised by his other work.

L

 

[jay]

Continuing some spoilish stuffs

I think I understand what you mean, but I was thinking about the whole relationship between Naoko and him, because what they had was more than the "grassy area experience".

Indeed, indeed.
I just (may have just) felt and/or hoped that he was moving away from her.

I felt Watanabe was passive on the night walks, I felt Reiko was more dominant and it was more about her, than them. It might just be me.

I was thinking he was confused. Getting acclimated. And/or discovering more about life. Transforming; which is a great part of what these ‘coming of age’ tales can be about.

The vision or dream that he had on his first night (?? – I forgot to pull down my copy of the novel last night to go over any diluted memories in my head…) staying with the girl’s -- the naked body that he was pretty certain was NOT Naoko -- what’s your take on this?
This, to me, was a ‘pure Murakami’ moment (which you will learn more about with ‘Wild Sheep’)…something was going on here (as with the odd little ‘seducer girl’- in a Murakami world we do *not* need a little silly mark on someone’s forehead (ala Harry Wanker) to know that s/he is…something a bit more than whats/he seems).

But no, ‘not just you’, we all interpret these kind of things in out own way. And I think that’s the great thing about certain forms of literature. I mean really, can one reaaaaally wax discourse on a Dan Brown or Stephen King book?
Interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.

Toro sleeping with Reiko - the last link to Naoko, always seemed, to me, some kind of a way for him to move on, to finally get Naoko out of his system, move on with his life, be with Midori without guilt, whatever.

Certainly plausible.

And, for Reiko too. Moving on with her life, the last link with her time in the sanctuary...

That one I have more trouble stomaching. But, who knows.

It's a kind of recurring theme throughout the book: Toru and Naoko bought together through the death of Kizuki; then Toru and Reiko bought together via the death of Naoko.

I can’t argue with that.

j

 

[Maya]

starchild,
I liked a few things about this book, not everything was bad, for instance some of the characters, and the chapter you mentioned and Midori's and Watanabe's conversations and so on, I found it all to be quite interesting, and pleasent to read. As a whole I don't feel the same way about the book. I was dissapointed when I reached the end, but that doesn't mean other's won't enjoy it.

Maya, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it. I really found it to be one of those books that isn't what it seems on the surface - certainly not simply about some 18 year old guy just sleeping around.

I know that. It's not like I didn't enjoy reading it at all, some parts were good, it's as a whole I didn't like it.

The vision or dream that he had on his first night (?? – I forgot to pull down my copy of the novel last night to go over any diluted memories in my head…) staying with the girl’s -- the naked body that he was pretty certain was NOT Naoko -- what’s your take on this?

Really?? I thought he was pretty sure it was Naoko, I recall having read that. I don't have the book here, since I've allready delivered it back to the library, but I'm sure he was sure it was Naoko that he saw, but Naoko acted as though nothing of what he saw had happened, so it might just have been a dream... I doubt it though.. since Watanabe was so sure it really happened.. you know..

I can’t argue with that.

Ditto.

 

[Eugen]

I've just suggested Norwegian Wood by Haruki Murakami for Aprils vote.

I was wondering if others on this forum have read his books and what you thought of them. His latest book Kafka on the Shore has recently been published - anybody read it yet? - what did you think?

I think he is probably one of the best writers I've come across in a long time.

Mark

I'm getting convinced on Haruki. After my Toni spell, maybe I'll try him.

 

[starchild42]

This is just getting better and better.

I think I've said before that I'm getting through his stuff in sequential order, well, I just got done with (about 5 minutes ago) Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World.

It's really fascinating to see how his writing and direction is evolving as I move through the various titles. Hear The Wind Sing was OK. A nice little story but didn't really have that Murakami "wow" factor. Wild Sheep Chase was getting there; I enjoyed it, but it still didn't totally float my boat. Hard Boiled Wonderland has just totally rocketed me into Murakami world and knocked my socks off. It took me a long time to get through it, about a week (various other "life" stuff has got in the way, normally I would have read this in a day or two), but it was totally worth persevering with.

"Dance, Dance, Dance" up next, I believe...

 

[mgarratty]

This is just getting better and better.

I think I've said before that I'm getting through his stuff in sequential order, well, I just got done with (about 5 minutes ago) Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World.

"Dance, Dance, Dance" up next, I believe...

I've read Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World and I think it's the best of his I've read so far (Norwegian Wood a close second) also read Dance Dance Dance and just finished Sputnick Sweetheart which I enjoyed but didn't like as much.

Would be interested to hear what you thought of Dance Dance Dance - I don't think I quite got that one.

BTW - where did you get a copy of Hear The Wind Sing - I don't seem to be able to find a copy anywhere.

 

[starchild42]

Haven't got to Dance, Dance, Dance yet. No doubt I'll post my thoughts up here when I finally do.

Keep your eye on Ebay for Hear The Wind Sing. I think I paid around 7 quid or so, plus postage. There's a guy who seems to have quite a few copies and they come up from time to time. Search worldwide, since he's based in Japan.

 

[jay]

Going back a few weeks here, but:

Really?? I thought he was pretty sure it was Naoko, I recall having read that. I don't have the book here, since I've allready delivered it back to the library, but I'm sure he was sure it was Naoko that he saw, but Naoko acted as though nothing of what he saw had happened, so it might just have been a dream... I doubt it though.. since Watanabe was so sure it really happened.. you know..

Yes, I guess you are correct. I finally pulled my copy down and flipped through it.
For some strange reason(s) I very much recall that it seemed more of a mystery woman…but indeed the hairclip and the, um, usage of her name indicates that it was Naoko.
Maybe her reaction in the morning triggered some thought that it wasn’t her and that it was a hybrid-fantasy or something.
Or maybe I was interpreting it in the way some Murakami needs to be read.
If I brought this interpretation up to him he may he intrigued.
Or call me a fool…
Strange how my half-a-mind works…

"Dance, Dance, Dance" up next, I believe...

Since you read NW, yes.

Hear the Wind Sing
Pinball
A Wild Sheep Chase
Hardboiled Wonderland & the End of the World
Norwegian Wood
Dance, Dance, Dance
South of the Border
The Elephant Vanishes (short stories)
The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle
Underground (non-fiction)
Sputnik Sweetheart
After the Quake (stories)
Kafka on the Shore

Would be interested to hear what you thought of Dance Dance Dance - I don't think I quite got that one.

While I guess it could be read on its own, it is *totally* a continuation of the themes (and 2 of the characters) from _A Wild Sheep Chase_. So without that foundation it was probably more confusing that it may be even after you read AWSC…

BTW - where did you get a copy of Hear The Wind Sing - I don't seem to be able to find a copy anywhere.

It occasionally pops up on eBay. It’s the English version released only in Japan, so it’s not in wide print or circulation. _Pinball_, released in the same manner is a hell of a lot harder to find.
Good luck,
j

 

[starchild42]

Mark, look here:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=377&item=4539297587&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

This is the guy I bought my copy from. He currently has 3 copies up on ebay, so you should be able to get one of them. If I remember correctly the postage was $5 to anywhere worldwide, and he delivered within a couple of weeks.

 

[Maya]

I finished reading "The Wild Sheep Chase" a while back, and I think it was an OK read. I liked the beginning and the end. The middle made me a little confused, but in a good way, so it wasn't as bad as I thought it might be. I think I'll give a few of his other novels a try sometime in the future.

Maybe her reaction in the morning triggered some thought that it wasn’t her and that it was a hybrid-fantasy or something.

Hmmm.. sounds logical. But then again, why would she think it was a fantasy? It's not like she hasn't gone "further" with Watanabe. Do you see what I mean?

If I brought this interpretation up to him he may he intrigued.
Or call me a fool…

I don't see any reason he should call someone who's bought and read his book a fool.

 

[mgarratty]

While I guess it could be read on its own, it is *totally* a continuation of the themes (and 2 of the characters) from _A Wild Sheep Chase_. So without that foundation it was probably more confusing that it may be even after you read AWSC…

That may explain it - I haven't read A Wlid Sheep Chase yet so will go for that next then maybe re-visit DDD - thanks for the tip.

Mark

 

[starchild42]

That may explain it - I haven't read A Wlid Sheep Chase yet so will go for that next then maybe re-visit DDD - thanks for the tip.

Mark

Mark, did you get to Wild Sheep Chase yet?

I read DDD over the weekend and can concur that you probably, well, almost certainly, wouldn't *get* it unless you'd read WSC first. I hope you do decide to give it another try after you've read WSC, or if not, at the least some things in DDD may start to make sense for you.

Would be interested to hear what you thought of Dance Dance Dance - I don't think I quite got that one.

Well, I enjoyed it a helluva lot. As well as being a damn good read, it helped to tie up some of the things I didn't quite get from A Wild Sheep Chase. My only slight gripe: I would have liked to have known a little more about what happened to Yuki - by far my favourite character. Maybe that's explained elsewhere (another book later on?), or maybe it's another Murakami thing where you're left to work it out for yourself. Still thinking on the ending.

Slight change of tack: for a while now I've been trying to get hold of Jay Rubin's biog/critique - "Haruki Murakami and the Music of Words", with great difficulty. Amazon has it constantly on back-order from the supplier, and my local store don't stock it and seemingly can't get hold of it. If anyone knows where I can source a reasonably priced, available-to-the-UK copy, please shout.

And on that subject: it was recommended to me a while back that I don't read it until I'm a little further down the road, as apparently, certain plot-points and characters are "revealed". If anyone here has read it, and can tell me which books/storylines are discussed (without giving anything away, obviously), I'd be grateful - I'm itching to read it, but don't want to have any suprises spoiled.

Slight change of tack #2 - since The Elephant Vanishes is comprised of short stories, I'm guessing it's not necessary to include this in the sequential-order thing before reading Wind Up?

So many questions, I know...

 

[jay]

Hmmm.. sounds logical. But then again, why would she think it was a fantasy? It's not like she hasn't gone "further" with Watanabe. Do you see what I mean?

Yes indeedy. I don’t know…just the way I saw envisioned it. The way she kind of questioned him the morning after, “what are you looking at?” as if nothing special or nothing at all happened the night before.
Or maybe she was just being coy.

I will stick with my thoughts on it until I reread it and just claim that Noru is an ‘unrealizable narrator’, as he’s telling us a story that happened some 20 years ago!
And it certainly seems that the Midori relationship didn’t last forever…

I don't see any reason he should call someone who's bought and read his book a fool.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh! But you don’t know me!
Straight out of “King Lear”…

My only slight gripe: I would have liked to have known a little more about what happened to Yuki - by far my favourite character. Maybe that's explained elsewhere (another book later on?)

Not to crush your hunt for her later on, but no. She’s not used again.
But yes, great character.

for a while now I've been trying to get hold of Jay Rubin's biog/critique - "Haruki Murakami and the Music of Words", with great difficulty. Amazon has it constantly on back-order from the supplier, and my local store don't stock

The Vintage paperback is quite easy to find and seems to ship within 24h.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...9652/sr=8-15/ref=pd_ka_14/202-4570724-8659063

And on that subject: it was recommended to me a while back that I don't read it until I'm a little further down the road, as apparently, certain plot-points and characters are "revealed". If anyone here has read it, and can tell me which books/storylines are discussed (without giving anything away, obviously), I'd be grateful - I'm itching to read it, but don't want to have any suprises spoiled.

It is indeed a ‘critical bio’ and no so much a ‘Baby Haruki was known to poop his pants until the age…’ as HM is a pretty private guy and was even hesitant to let Rubin write/publish it as is.
It _is_ is chronological order, and labeled so in the chapter headings, so the books you haven’t yet read, you could just stop at those sections and then read after you’ve progressed.

- since The Elephant Vanishes is comprised of short stories, I'm guessing it's not necessary to include this in the sequential-order thing before reading Wind Up?

Now that you’ve done _Dance Dance Dance_ I wouldn’t say it is mandatory to read in order, that’s just more of a thing I personally enjoy doing; seeing the ideas develop, possibly (and with HM, probably) reoccur, and the writer mature.
As for the stories, I think they are *certainly* essential HM reading, but maybe not specifically placed in order, as some of them were written before, say, ‘Dance3’ etc.
Sadly, HM chose not to have all his stories translated…yet.

Although that said, the first story is almost directly (96%) what turned into the first chapter of _The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle_, so it’s, to me, interesting to see the changes HM made to make it into a setting for a novel, as opposed to a stand-alone story. The short story has an ending that, to me, reads as a tribute to American short story writer and HM idol, Raymond Carver.

Good luck,
j

 

[novella]

There's a new Murakami story, very short, online at The New Yorker. I read it yesterday. I thought it was absorbing, a little predictable, but tender and clean. Here's a link. It will probably only be online for free for one week.


Murakami Story: Where I'm Likely to Find It