Publish or Self-publish?

[Daniel_Infinity]

Well, I'm finished my manuscript (boy changing normal document format into book manuscripts are a little hard,) and I have also revised the book (not as much or as good as I wanted to but *shrug*) and I have around 57,000 words. Now, sigh, I am facing quite a dilemma; I don't know how to publish! (Sorry, I already asked about publishing three times and I'm sure people want to just whap people that keep going on about publishing!)

I really want to self-publish but I don't exactly have fifteen to twenty-five hundred dollars to go ahead with.
I just found out about lulu.com, does anybody know if that's a good place to publish from experience, i.e.? Because it looks pretty alright, but then again I also though publish america did until I started finding out more about them.
And then I really want to get published by a traditional publisher but I don't know how that would go and I'm thinking maybe I should just self-publish for now (if self-publishing then going to a traditional publisher isn't bad publishing ethic...?)

Oh yeah, and does anybody know about the New york literary agency? Are they a good bet for me? Or should I avoid?

I have also looked through the Canadian Writer's guide and other books that have publishers and filled with alright information, but I don't know if I should just mail my manuscript to publishers all over to different states? And does it matter that I live in Canada, would that affect me publishing in America?

Sorry if this is bugging anybody, and thanks in advance for any response. I promise this'll be my absoulute LAST post on seeking advice for publishing!!

 

[WoodYouLike]

Not sure if this is any help to you ('publisher' is based in the UK, but I'm sure there are same kind of companies in Canada?).
I used: Antony Rowe - CPI to self-publish, initial costs not more than £ 250.00 and can order POD (print on demand, same costs per book if you order 1 or if you order 100, just keep in mind the P&P costs per order).

 

[Stewart]

I wouldn't pay any company to publish me; that's straight out vanity. If you really feel a need to self-publish your material (rather than put it aside for future appraisal while continuing to write) then lulu.com is probably better for you.

But, first of all, think about why you want to self-publish your book? Are you self-publishing because you know you are not good enough to place the book the traditional way? Are you self-publishing because you want to see a book with your name on it? Do you seriously believe that people will buy your book just because it is published? Do you truly understand what you are getting yourself into?

 

[WoodYouLike]

Sorry Stewart but I do not agree with you I'm afraid. Self-publishing is not vanity, there could be very good and practical reasons to publish your book without needing to wait forever till some company decides it is 'profitable' enough for them to take it on. Is that the only valid reason you see as getting your book published? Profit?

Times are a changing, publishing is changing, publishers are changing, the whole readers world is changing and even the authors are changing.

And I really don't like your comment of: do you think you're not good enough to use the traditional way. The traditional way has changed, IMHO for the better.

 

[Stewart]

Self-publishing is not vanity,

When you start paying others to have your work published, that's vanity publishing. Self-publishing is when you pay the printers.

...there could be very good and practical reasons to publish your book without needing to wait forever till some company decides it is 'profitable' enough for them to take it on.

Writing groups' short story anthologies, local history, cookbooks. Surely not novels? (And, er, business novels!)

Is that the only valid reason you see as getting your book published? Profit?

No; talent.

Times are a changing, publishing is changing, publishers are changing, the whole readers world is changing and even the authors are changing.

You and Wolf Larsen might want to start your own little club.

And I really don't like your comment of: do you think you're not good enough to use the traditional way.

First of all, you are free to not like it but, in fairness, it wasn't directed at you but was asked of Daniel. Secondly, it's a valid question.

The traditional way has changed, IMHO for the better.

In what way has traditional publishing (writer -> agent -> publisher -> reader) changed? Agents are cutting out the crap, publishers are putting the books out, and readers are reaping the results of a business model based around quality control. Why would something that's a success be changing?

 

[WoodYouLike]

Let's agree not to agree

 

[Stewart]

OK. But explain yourself as to the comment that "the traditional way has changed" please.

 

[WoodYouLike]

OK. But explain yourself as to the comment that "the traditional way has changed" please.

I will, but, and this is not to 'fob' you off now, it has to be on another day (working today and very bizy with running my business ;-))

 

[Justin91]

I have to agree with Stewart, the question: "Why do I want to publish?" is a very important question to ask yourself. And answer yourself honestly.

If your finished manuscript is saleable and you want to self publish, then coming up with two thousand dollars would be top priority...if you are confident in your manuscript. Ask everyone you know to read your manuscript, tell them you are publishing and want to know if they would like a piece of the action. You could possibly raise money you need, but more importantly you will receive some honest feedback on what you are trying to peddle is trash or not. People are more honest when their money is on the line.

Not enough acquaintances to raise the funds? Start submitting. Look for "Literary Agents" and "publishers" online. Better yet, purchase a copy of The Writers Market and find an agent/publisher that fit your particular genre or style. Some market research on your end is important here.

An important note: Many manuscripts are rejected simply because of poor submissions. Before submitting, find out the submission guidelines for each publisher/agent you intend to submit to. Some pages never leave the envelope due to lack of knowledge on what they expect. All this is found in The Writers Market .

 

[lady.cordelia]

well, sometimes self-publishing can work for you in that you can start small and maybe get noticed by a larger agency. i have edited books for some authors and will try to get some names that they used for you.

also, just because a publisher doesn't choose to publish doesn't mean it was a lack of talent. did you know that harry potter was in the pile to be trashed and was saved at the last minute by someone else in the group that just happened to glance at it. you just never know!

good luck anyways and i'll try to find the name that one particular author i have typed for/edited for has used. they had good success there and immediately went to amazon.

 

[Zolipara]

What have you actually accomplished when you have self-published your book? Will it be on display in any book stores? Will any potential readers hear about it? Will traditional publishers read your book? Will the readers be impressed by the lack of professional editing etc?

Do you think its more likely to get noticed by a traditional publisher if you send them manuscripts or if you self-publish a book that noone will ever hear about?

The only self-publish success stories i've heard about is from webcomics with a large established circle of readers that use a POD service.

Printing the book is easy. Getting someone to read it is not.

 

[Daniel_Infinity]

Are you self-publishing because you know you are not good enough to place the book the traditional way? Are you self-publishing because you want to see a book with your name on it? Do you seriously believe that people will buy your book just because it is published? Do you truly understand what you are getting yourself into?

Not really .

Honestly,
I think because this is my first book I'm trying to avoid the rejection if it doesn't get so far as off the editors desk in a big publisher. Right now I'm telling myself it's because it's not in Canada, I don't know how it'll work, what is their terms on copyright, but truthfully I really think even though I know I can take it, I don't want to send out ten thousand copies of manuscript and then not get anything back.
Another reason is that tomorrow I'll probably have a hundred dollars to put towards getting my book published; I don't really have anyone I can present the book to to get advice or raise any money, which is a nicer way of saying I'm a loser.
I think self-publishing might be good as a way for me to try and get book stores in my small little town to take it on, maybe sell ten copies and somehow get the word out myself, take on the critique and improve, or what I would really want (I know it's not going to happen but, psht, dreams are what keep us going,) is for a major publisher to read it and go, 'Hmm, with a little editing this can be a good book,' buy it from me and publish it.
And then it was your darn self-publishing success stories post!

Not enough acquaintances to raise the funds? Start submitting. Look for "Literary Agents" and "publishers" online. Better yet, purchase a copy of The Writers Market and find an agent/publisher that fit your particular genre or style. Some market research on your end is important here.

I've looked for literary agents but I just don't have the right feel for them and then the ones I eventually almost end up sending my manuscript to I find out are bogus. And another thing for me with publishers is how do I know that sending it to 'this' publisher will mean it'll end up on bookstore shelfs if it gets published? What kind of marketing do they do? Who do they distribute to?
Where would I be able to buy the Writers Market? There is a library like twenty minutes from where I live and there have multiple books like Canadian writers guide and the writers guide or similar, but then when it comes to publishers and agents they don't give much information and half of them are in the U.S. and the other half is in the U.K.

 

[Caffeina]

Not really .

Honestly,
I think because this is my first book I'm trying to avoid the rejection if it doesn't get so far as off the editors desk in a big publisher. Right now I'm telling myself it's because it's not in Canada, I don't know how it'll work, what is their terms on copyright, but truthfully I really think even though I know I can take it, I don't want to send out ten thousand copies of manuscript and then not get anything back.

First I want to say congrats on finishing your book, that's quite an accomplishment and you should be proud published or not.

As for the statement above all I can say is welcome to the wonderful world of being a creative person and trying to make a go of it professionally. I'm not a writer, I'm an illustrator and when you are trying to get noticed and get work or get published you have to be able to take criticism. I sent out hundreds of postcards and query letters for years and I was lucky if I got back 10 responses and half of them were rejection letters. I now have a beautiful binder full of them! I now work for some of the very people that rejected me so many years ago. It took time but I now make a living doing what I love.
My point it that in my opinion if you're going to go,...go big. Find books that are similiar in style to yours and find out who they're agent are and send your manuscript to them. Or better yet buy a copy of the writer's market from Amazon and look for agents that way.

Best of luck!

 

[ions]

The Writers Market is available in Canada. Including copies targeted to Canada. Avoid self-publishing and vanity publishing. If you want more of a reason to avoid vanity publishing beyond what Stewart has said read Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco. That'll teach ya. After having spoken to a handful of published writers, a couple publishers and hearing a couple agents speak I would suggest the method I have heard.

Get an agent. No major publisher looks at a writer without an agent. An agent can help you with your work if they see potential in it. Better agents won't take you unless you have already been published. Maybe a short in a magazine or anthology. Lesser known agents can get your work in front of someone who can get it in front of someone above them. Research the agents you submit to. Why send a sci-fi book to an agent that handles romance works? Agents do check out new works. They want to find the next big writer as badly as you want to be the next big writer.

 

[Honeybee]

Two questions: isn't all publishing vanity publishing? And what's so wrong with vanity anyway?

People have been self-publishing for years - it was good enough for William Blake. Self-publishing has an awful lot going for it. It's incredibly difficult to get publishers to even take a look at an uncomissioned manuscript. And if you do manage to get that far, whether they'll take it really depends on whether they think it'll sell. You can be as talented as you like but if your book doesn't fit the right criteria you'd have to be very lucky to find a publisher. At the moment the 'in' things seem to be the knights templar and confessional life stories. So if you're a templar who was beaten as a child, presumably you'd be quids in.

Self-publishing offers freedom from publishers' bottom line. You can write about what you know and love and know that you'll find an outlet for it. You won't get the marketing or distribution one of the big publishers can get you, but with a little imagination and an internet connection you can market your work yourself. Much like bands that aren't signed to a major label.

Self-publishing has been blighted by the plethora of badly written and poorly proofread manuscripts that have been forced onto the world, but that doesn't make such publishing bad in itself, just open to misuse.

My advice to you, Daniel, would be further research. Contact some litarary agents, talk to some self-publishers, maybe join some writers' groups. A good way to start creating a buzz about yourself is to get short stories published in magazines and anthologies, maybe that's something to consider. Also, get used to rejection, if you really want to get published, it's a hazzard of the trade. If you do choose to the way of self-publishing, please get your manuscript professionally proofread. There's nothing more amateurish than a book full of grammatical and spelling errors. Coincidentally I'm a professional proofreader, if you want to discuss rates, PM me!

 

[Stewart]

People have been self-publishing for years - it was good enough for William Blake.

It was good enough for Virginia Woolf too. And James Joyce. But, that was long, long ago when those who wrote novels did them in ink or with a typewriter, retyping whole pages - you had to be committed to writing your novel. These days, any idiot with a word processor can tap out any old crap and upload it to Lulu and call themselves a published author, which is wrong. The publishing industry may be changing, may be coming more interested in making cash than nurturing talent, but the fact that the industry exists at all only serves to bless us with one thing that vanity publishing can't offer us: quality control. (Dan Brown is the exception that proves the rule.)

Self-publishing has an awful lot going for it.

Such as ridiculous costs? The stigma it carries?

with a little imagination and an internet connection you can market your work yourself. Much like bands that aren't signed to a major label.

Sometimes the problem is not imagination but an ability to portray what ever wrongs are babbling through their mind. Most self-published authors must be suffering from imagination-burnout based on the imaginative ways most market themselves (i.e. has anyone heard of this new author. they is really good! here's the ISBN and here's their site.).

A good way to start creating a buzz about yourself is to get short stories published in magazines and anthologies, maybe that's something to consider.

I will second this, Daniel.

I would also invite you to revisit a former thread by yourself. In a way you don't appear to have any confidence in your own work and this thread reinforces that.

I would put your manuscript away in a drawer and forget about it for three or four months. In that time don't even look at it; just start writing some short stories. When you've written them, put them aside too and give them a few weeks before you return to them. Keep on writing short stories. Pick up the oldest short story after the few weeks and read it through, make notes, rewrite it. Keep on writing short stories. Once you've drafted it and it feels complete, perhaps ask someone willing to be critical to read it. (Zoetrope is rather good. It encourages you to critique others' work too, something that helps you to determine what you like and dislike about a story.) When you think the story is the best it can be, send it off to magazines that publish that sort of thing. If it doesn't sell there, try somewhere else. Keep a record of where your stories are, where they've been, and where they're going next. (So you don't flood one particular magazine with your stories.)

Just keep on writing. And if a story has been round the block a number of times, then perhaps it's just not good enough; retire it. If you place a story, that should give you confidence to place more. It also gives you some extra details to put on your query letter - the sort of details that will make someone eye it more favourably.

 

[ions]

Just keep on writing. And if a story has been round the block a number of times, then perhaps it's just not good enough; retire it.

Or before you go as far as retiring it examine why it's not getting anywhere. Eventually someone is going to give you some constructive feedback on what you need to do to your writing. Listen to that. You don't necessarily have to agree with the advice or even act on it but if you're not getting anywhere you really have no choice but to consider the feedback you get. Rewrite! Rewrite! Rewrite!

 

[Daniel_Infinity]

Hey everybody, thanks.
Yeah I think I've just about completely steered clear of self-publishing. It seemed interesting but the upfront cost of it and then not knowing what type of marketing the book will get or getting professional advice on the manuscript kind of makes me want to go the traditional way.

I don't know about the short story thing though, maybe I will write some and post it on Zoetrope for critique, but I'm not sure about magazines. What type of publications accept short stories? I'm not sure of any where I live but I'll do a little research.

And yeah, I am pretty unconfident in my work. It's just that it's finished and I can't really put it away while I'm still in the 'You-just-finished-that-story-you-wanted-to-finish-though-you-really-thought-you-were-never-going-to-so-get-it-published' sort of mood, or drive. I really just want to get it read for the c&c and if I got it published a couple of extra dollars wouldn't have hurt either.
Oh well, I'll probably be over it in a couple of weeks anyhow so then I should be able to start writing up some short stories.
I've sent a query to a literary agent I found here in B.C. though, but I don't know how that will go if I even get a response.

Thanks for the replies everyone. Much appreciated.

 

[Stewart]

I'm not sure about magazines. What type of publications accept short stories? I'm not sure of any where I live but I'll do a little research.

While I wouldn't want to name any, there are all manner of magazines that are out there looking for short stories. Some are in print; some are on the web. Magazines near you don't matter when, with the internet, your reach is global. It helps to be aware of the short stories a magazine prints, though; so if one piques your interest it may be in your best interests to buy a couple of back issues.

I'm still in the 'You-just-finished-that-story-you-wanted-to-finish-though-you-really-thought-you-were-never-going-to-so-get-it-published' sort of mood

You really need to put it away for a while. That way you will distance yourself from it so that, when you come to read through it again, you will not be suffering from the you-just-finished-that-story-you-wanted-to-finish-though-you-really-thought-you-were-never-going-to-so-get-it-published passion you are feeling now.

The only thing I find saddening, through repeated reading of your posts, is that you seem obsessed from making money through writing. But based on what I've read - from your writing, from your queries - you don't know your craft well enough to be making money.

 

[Honeybee]

Short stories Do a google search for the type of stories you want to write. I've done that before and come up with a whole load and those were only in the UK. If you widen it worldwide, there'll be plenty.

Money If you're writing for cash, give up on being a novelist now and become a copywriter. Use what talent you have extolling the beauty of the latest 'pure 9ct gold bracelet set with real diamond-cut cubic zirconia and turquoise quartz'.

Confidence (or lack thereof) DI, ask yourself this, if you don't believe yourself, why should anyone else? I'm not talking super-shiny, never-listen-to-criticism-even-when-it's-constructive blind faith, but you have to have some confidence in your own writing or no one else will.

And Stewart's right. You need a break from it. When you're in that just-finished phase it's impossible to be objective. Put a little distance between you and your manuscript, then go back and see what you think.