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Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita
- Thread starter Love4OneAnother
- Start date
pontalba
Well-Known Member
Peder said:I have to confess, I strayed.
But I got a good laugh out of it.
VN is speaking, in the Introduction to The Defense,
and then I knew who the Viennese Delegation were, and gave it a hearty laugh.
Innocent merriment,
Peder
Anything Nabokov is not considered straying. 
Peder
Well-Known Member
Steffee,steffee said:Oh, right, I had no idea it was so subtle that you could even miss it altogether in Pnin
But I am most definitely looking forward to Pale Fire
You're right about the "ghost" concept, and I only used the word "ghost" because you did (or rather Toker did), and would have called it "spirit" or "discrete consciousness" or "state of being" or something equally as non-trite (??)
First, I commented on the word ghost because I had seen critics use it, and realized that you used it because I did. Now however I think I have even seen a mention that Nabokov himself used it at least once, so who can quarrel with the man himself? Even if as I suspect other languages mean more like spirit with their word for ghost. (After all, Holy Spirit, HolyGhost are interchangeable in English -- if that doesn't cause the ceiling to fall.
)But more to the point, I have picked up one mention in Pnin of about 6 lines, and if that is all there is, it hardly justifies buying the book just for that alone. I have also found more extended comments, about two dozen lines in Speak Memory so far, but there again a similar comment applies. Mentions of only that size are for the compilers to pick up and assemble. Pale Fire plus commentary is a whole 'nother matter, because there the idea is arguably the centerpiece in rationalizing a large part of the story (according to one way of interpreting it, and there are many many ways).
I'll post them tomorrow,
The mentions, not the ways
Peder
and PS, there are no doubt scholarly articles published in literary journals somewhere, and no doubt cited among the references in the Cambridge Companion -- and that suddenly brings to mind trusty ol' google.
See?! That's what discussions are for!
Thanks for the question.Peder
Peder
Well-Known Member
Peder said:and PS, there are no doubt scholarly articles published in literary journals somewhere, and no doubt cited among the references in the Cambridge Companion -- and that suddenly brings to mind trusty ol' google.
See?! That's what discussions are for!
Peder
Steffee,
Well, haven't gone to google yet, but at least I can easily post the brief mention from Pnin. The scene has Pnin wandering over the grounds of a large estate thinking of a former acquaintance who died in a death camp during WWII and that
And as it turns out, that passage more or less seques into the next chapter of the book where a number of live faculty members, each in their own independent way, but in effect collectively, make decisions that lead to the denoument of the story and to its sad outcome for Professor Timofey Pnin. One might perhaps interpret a connection between the events as an influence of the ghosts acting through the faculty members which in turn might not be inconsistent with VN's intuition of the interaction between the after life and the current world. But please note the careful and extensive hedging of my comment.
It also permits VN a wry stab at the Russia of the time, and at the low intellectual stature Pnin ascribes to the President of the College, who includes Raskolnikov, the criminal from Crime and Punishment, as among the good and the great of Russia. [
]More later,
Peder
steffee
Active Member
Peder said:
Thank you for posting that Peder
Peder said:
I understand
But how interesting, that he should (might!) illustrate his beliefs/ideas in such a subtle and unpreaching way, and thus leaving him safe from potential conflict
How very clever.
Peder said:It also permits VN a wry stab at the Russia of the time, and at the low intellectual stature Pnin ascribes to the President of the College, who includes Raskolnikov, the criminal from Crime and Punishment, as among the good and the great of Russia. [
Very observant!
It's interesting that Nabokov ridicules his native country, and includes Raskolnikov, but very brave. Just look at what's become of Salman Rushdie. But yes, good ol' Nabokov eh?
Peder
Well-Known Member
Steffee,steffee said:It's interesting that Nabokov ridicules his native country, and includes Raskolnikov, but very brave. Just look at what's become of Salman Rushdie. But yes, good ol' Nabokov eh?
I would think it had to be the regime he was critical of, which destroyed his life there early on and so many others, and continued throughout his life, rather than his country itself, which I think he always remembered and yearned for. He never lived to see the crumbling of the Iron Curtain, I don't think. Unless my dates are way out of whack.
Peder
Peder
Well-Known Member
Steffee,steffee said:Yes, sorry, I meant to say "government" or something, but decided against it. But yeah, most satires don't usually have a problem with the country itself. He had a lot to be proud of, not least the quality of the writing coming from Russia
Old habits die hard, but my own undertanding is that it was a very sticky point of terminology throughout the Cold War. That patriotic Russians loved their country -- Mother Russia, as it is thought of -- while very clearly calling it a "Soviet" government and not a "Russian" government that was in power. Echoes of the past in Nabokov! Elsewhere I have read that Nabokov himself was a very hardliner in the U.S. against the Soviet government in Russia. More echoes. Now, I don't know what the feelings and terminology are, except that I am certain that "Mother Russia" must still persist, as bedrock.
Peder
pontalba
Well-Known Member
I wanted to bring this over here as it is really more about Lolita than Rochelle.
On Lolita, firstly we saw the brat, then the sexually curious (pre) teenager, then the layers started forming and thickening to our view. I flat out did not like her to begin with, as I made quite plain. But she grew on me to the point that I finally liked and even admired her.
At first with Humbert, she was forced into a semblence of maturity by being abused. It made her examine exactly what she wanted out of life. She could no longer just take it as it came at her. She realized that she did not want to be forced into behavior that was repugnant to her. So she unconsciously formed new "pathways" in her self to contend with the situation, and actually forumlated a plan to get away. Well, she was naive enough to believe that Quilty cared for her. Thats certainly excusable, as she had only seen him in a protected enviorment, not his natural enviorment. But when she did see that "natural enviorment" of his, she got away from that as well. Now what was she?, 14 going on 15 at that time? She made her own way then, and didn't depend on others to smooth her way in life. I call that admirable.
Humbert had his own progression too didn't he. He tried all his life to control his longing for "nymphets" by using young looking prostitutes, and confining himself to institutions when it all became too much for him. Because I feel as though that is why he entered institutions so often. As a form of control. Perhaps he didn't understand that himself. But he as we have proven to (at least mine) our satisfaction he did love Lolita, and would have remained loyal to her if she would have come with him in the end. I think that the episode with Lolita was somehow a closing bookend to Annabel.
/sigh/ Who knows? I certainly don't, but thats the way I see it today.
On Lolita, firstly we saw the brat, then the sexually curious (pre) teenager, then the layers started forming and thickening to our view. I flat out did not like her to begin with, as I made quite plain. But she grew on me to the point that I finally liked and even admired her.
At first with Humbert, she was forced into a semblence of maturity by being abused. It made her examine exactly what she wanted out of life. She could no longer just take it as it came at her. She realized that she did not want to be forced into behavior that was repugnant to her. So she unconsciously formed new "pathways" in her self to contend with the situation, and actually forumlated a plan to get away. Well, she was naive enough to believe that Quilty cared for her. Thats certainly excusable, as she had only seen him in a protected enviorment, not his natural enviorment. But when she did see that "natural enviorment" of his, she got away from that as well. Now what was she?, 14 going on 15 at that time? She made her own way then, and didn't depend on others to smooth her way in life. I call that admirable.
Humbert had his own progression too didn't he. He tried all his life to control his longing for "nymphets" by using young looking prostitutes, and confining himself to institutions when it all became too much for him. Because I feel as though that is why he entered institutions so often. As a form of control. Perhaps he didn't understand that himself. But he as we have proven to (at least mine) our satisfaction he did love Lolita, and would have remained loyal to her if she would have come with him in the end. I think that the episode with Lolita was somehow a closing bookend to Annabel.
/sigh/ Who knows? I certainly don't, but thats the way I see it today.
Peder
Well-Known Member
Pontalba,
I wrote my response over in the Enchanter thread before even seeing this description of Lolita, and now I have to redouble my admiration for the way you can put a character and a story to the VN words that appear on the page. Applause, applause!
And yes, that's me down dead on the floor on my back with my toes pointed up.
I like your Lolita,
And your 'Rochelle,'
Peder
I wrote my response over in the Enchanter thread before even seeing this description of Lolita, and now I have to redouble my admiration for the way you can put a character and a story to the VN words that appear on the page. Applause, applause!
And yes, that's me down dead on the floor on my back with my toes pointed up.
I like your Lolita,
And your 'Rochelle,'
Peder
Peder
Well-Known Member
Pontalba,pontalba said:Well get up off of the floor and make the tea for Heaven's Sake!
Would that be decaf for the late crowd?
Oops, sorry, won't ask again!
Or perhaps some like hot chocolate before bed?
But for the very nice Lolita, I just calls 'em as I sees 'em also.
Peder
and I forgot, I like your Humbert also.
P.
pontalba
Well-Known Member
Steffeesteffee said:I always get confused on the time, Still I think is 6 or 7 hours behind me, New York - 4? In winter, I think, or 5. Pontalba?
It's 12.08am Monday now, here.
I am Central Time Zone for USA, so it is 6:18 p.m. (Sunday night) here now. I believe SIL is Pacific Time which is 2 hours earlier than I am.
Heres a neat time finder...
http://www.qlock.com/time/
Peder
Well-Known Member
To all and every,
While everybody [ ] is around, I thought I would mention here also that the thought has come up that maybe we need a new catch-all thread to hold all of our different kinds of topics that are coming into the discussion. Lolita/Enchanter are not quite enough anymore. Or it could be a Pnin thread if that was a book we all wanted to get behind for discussion, but that would still leave other topics loose. (like afterlife in VN)
So reactions being sought on a new thread, and what kind. Anyone?
Peder
While everybody [
] is around, I thought I would mention here also that the thought has come up that maybe we need a new catch-all thread to hold all of our different kinds of topics that are coming into the discussion. Lolita/Enchanter are not quite enough anymore. Or it could be a Pnin thread if that was a book we all wanted to get behind for discussion, but that would still leave other topics loose. (like afterlife in VN)So reactions being sought on a new thread, and what kind. Anyone?
Peder