Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

[pontalba]

Pontalba
IMO the length has rather more to do with Nabokov and rather less to do with the two detectives.

DOUBLE DITTO

The layers are unending, and I mean that in the best of ways.

 

[Peder]

Pontalba. StillILearn.
I agree with everything you both have said.

Originally I read Lolita as a followup to Reading Lolita in Tehran and I was completely taken by it. By both of them actually. Now, as I have branched out and read some other of Nabokov's works (Pale Fire, Pnin), I have become hooked on his unbelievble style and his uncanny ability to simply and beautifully tell a story.

After rereading Lolita enough by now, to finally get most of the story in my head (but never all), I find it amazing to just read and watch, not the content of the story, but rather his telling of the story. One sees a totally different couch scene, for example. when one looks at the sentences themselves and sees how economically and clearly he puts the story on the page.

Now I am reading Speak Memory, his autobiography, and I think it is even more amazing than his novels! When it is light tomorrow I'll put up a paragraph from Brian Boyd's Introduction.

Hope you all's have a good evening,
And CU tomorrow,
Or whenever festivities permit
Meanwhile Happy New Year
And get some sleep
Peder

 

[steffee]

I can't remember when I've had so much fun! I know I'll be haunting the place like the bartender haunting his old bar in The Shining.

I agree, too.

 

[StillILearn]

I have a copy of Speak Memory on the way.

I have to tell you all this story: You all know by now that I have a twelve year-old g'daughter and that sometimes she brings her girlfriends over to my house. For one thing, I will never see them in exactly the same way again after reading Lolita. I think it makes me cherish their innocence much more than I might have. Tonight they were clowning around and mugging -- taking pictures of themselves with my digital camera -- and the sweetness of their uninhibited and trusting behavior is particularly poignant to me these days. They were threatening to moon the camera, and I was laughing and saying that I wouldn't be able to email their pictures to them if they did that because I'd get arrested, and they were all laughing at that idea, too. Lolita could never have had such a happy, trusting relationship with anybody after HH entered her life. He took that away from her.

"You mean, " she said opening her eyes and raising herself slightly, the snake that may strike, "you mean you will give us [us] that money only if I go with you to a motel. Is that what you mean?"

(page 278)

She had every possible reason to believe that this was indeed the way of the world.

 

[pontalba]

otoh

On p.183 HH seems somewhat 'reluctant' to report a "drop in Lolita's morals." Oh brother, he is the one that taught her that "favors" were something for sale. I mean really....."Her weekly allowance, paid to her under condition she fulfill her basic obligations......." basic obligations my aunt fanny! I cannot color that sentence with enough cold sarcasm. Even continuing on the next page that he might "fondly demand an additional kiss"..........aaaarrrrgggghhhh! And then he actually stole the money back from her! {Really, how could 21 cents even buy a dirty look?} Even in the 1950's???

Now otoh, back on p. 132-133 he is absolutely terrified that she will demand that she be taken back to the camp or back to Ramsdale. At the initial point of his, how can I put it?, rape/seduction/kidnapping etc. he did not have the upper hand at all. In fact truthfully in many ways Lo had the upper hand in the relationship at all times. Back to p. 184...."she proved to be a cruel negotiator whenever it was in her power to deny me certain life-wrecking, strange, slow paradisal philters without which I could not live more than a few days............."

We can argue it either way I suspect. He was certainly a pervert and manipulative. She was greedy and manipulative. But she was in large part what he formed her to be. Since she left Quilty asap, I very strongly suspect that she was in fact a decent young girl thrown into a terrible situation, and she dealt with it the only way she could figure out.

Lets see......passive/agressive.....obsessive/compulsive....paranoid.....the never ending list.

 

[Peder]

StillLearn,
Yay on the Speak Memory! You will absolutely enjoy it! (See later post).

Regarding the innocence of 12 year old children, I also have to agree. It is a long time since mine were that age, but I remember the fun times that we all were able to have together as family because nobody was (too) up tight. Those times only come once, so take LOTS of pictures! My father always had his canera with him and was taking pictures of everything and anything until we had drawers full. (There is a picture of my young father standing outside the hospital where I was born. He looks mighty relaxed so it must have been after the big event! ) Now I apprecciate every one of them and my children love looking at them too -- on the rare occasions that we now get together only by one's and two's.

Peder

 

[Peder]

Pontalba, and StillILearn also,
You both remind me of my unfinished project, to see if I can find any traces of remorse as he looks back and writes his manuscript. I am getting to think not, because, as you have pointed out, VN painted him black as black can be. Which come to think of it, is so at variance with the spirit of this Holiday season. Brrrrrrrrrrrr.

Spoiler

Perhaps that's why VN has her die on Christmas Day? For the stark contrast.

And be born on New Year's Day, to symbolize the joyous start of her fresh new life? It makes one think.

Keep ya' posted,
Now to rustle up the Pale Fire quotes,
Peder

 

[Peder]

I wish that 'spoiler' bar was a different color. More friendly. Less ugly.

 

[Peder]

...I very strongly suspect that she was in fact a decent young girl thrown into a terrible situation, and she dealt with it the only way she could figure out.
(

Pontalba,
And I'll add that to my list too, to look at, because I would add my own favorite, 'rambunctious,' to your list of character possibilites. One thing she was not. She was not dumb -- at least I don't think so -- even though HH sees her as an airhead. One more thing for the look-at list! It just grows and grows. As VN smiles and smiles.

Plus, I like her sense of humor (VN's own, no doubt)
And in her own environment -- to echo StillILearn's story up above -- she was a fun-loving child and could really enjoy herself when away from HH's grasp even a little bit -- the distance of a tennis court, for example. Lolita at play is fun to read.

Now to put some coffee in the engine,
Peder

 

[pontalba]

Pontalba, and StillILearn also,
You both remind me of my unfinished project, to see if I can find any traces of remorse as he looks back and writes his manuscript. I am getting to think not, because, as you have pointed out, VN painted him black as black can be. Which come to think of it, is so at variance with the spirit of this Holiday season. Brrrrrrrrrrrr.

Spoiler

Perhaps that's why VN has her die on Christmas Day? For the stark contrast.

And be born on New Year's Day, to symbolize the joyous start of her fresh new life? It makes one think.

Keep ya' posted,
Now to rustle up the Pale Fire quotes,
Peder

That makes perfect sense.

I do feel HH was remorseful, even though at present I cannot bring a specific event to mind. Which granted is cloudy, due to lack of tea..........

It seems there was a general tenor of remorse running thru the commentary. Oh, I do remember one instance, when he brought Lo to the Enchanted Hunters Lodge........he said (p.123) "And my only regret today is that I did not quietly deposit key "342" at the office, and leave the town, the country, the continent, the hemisphere,---indeed, the globe---that very same night."
Since that is the beginning of the whole nightmare, and he wishes he'd just left, that has to lead one to believe he regrets all that followed.

Although on the following page he does reiterate his hope to be restrained, and (restrained only in his own mind!) not let Lolita actually know what is going on. Of course the whole scheme he has planned was ludicrous to say the very least.

 

[pontalba]

I have a copy of Speak Memory on the way.

I have to tell you all this story: You all know by now that I have a twelve year-old g'daughter and that sometimes she brings her girlfriends over to my house. For one thing, I will never see them in exactly the same way again after reading Lolita. I think it makes me cherish their innocence much more than I might have. Tonight they were clowning around and mugging -- taking pictures of themselves with my digital camera -- and the sweetness of their uninhibited and trusting behavior is particularly poignant to me these days. They were threatening to moon the camera, and I was laughing and saying that I wouldn't be able to email their pictures to them if they did that because I'd get arrested, and they were all laughing at that idea, too. Lolita could never have had such a happy, trusting relationship with anybody after HH entered her life. He took that away from her.


(page 278)

She had every possible reason to believe that this was indeed the way of the world.

StillILearn Unfortunately, it seems that after reading this book, ones eyes are opened to another world, and lots of ordinary occurances will never look the same again. But I was paranoid to begin with. What is that old expression? Something like if you expect the worst, maybe you'll be pleasently surprised.................

I don't have children, but I am of an age that I could have grandchildren Lo's age, and sometimes I am sorry, but more often, I am not.

 

[StillILearn]

pontalba

I don't have children, but I am of an age that I could have grandchildren Lo's age, and sometimes I am sorry, but more often, I am not.

My advice would be to borrow somebody else's. Then you will have saved yourself all the grief, sleepless nights, and remorse about having made every mistake on the planet in raising their parents.

(Just joking! I think.)

 

[StillILearn]

peder

And I'll add that to my list too, to look at, because I would add my own favorite, 'rambunctious,' to your list of character possibilites. One thing she was not. She was not dumb -- at least I don't think so -- even though HH sees her as an airhead. One more thing for the look-at list! It just grows and grows. As VN smiles and smiles.

This is one of the things I have come to appreciate so greatly about this book; Nabokov's subtlety. In future, I will give the reader more credit for careful reading and reading between the lines.

HH refers to Lo's IQ more than once, doesn't he? He says something like, "despite her high IQ, she ..." then he goes on to complain about something one might expect from a child her age, just as he measures her thighs to see if she isn't growing out of her nymphancy. I have all the sympathy in the world for this girl, and believe that her "manipulative" behavior is only the survival technique of a child who has "absolutely no one else" to turn to except for this predator.

Oh. I forgot. She did have her Uncle Q.

 

[SFG75]

StillI, pale, disheveled, alone in the silence of the courtroom restroom, presses a fistfull of cold water to her lips as she glances askance at the sticky that has been left on the mirror for her perusal. StillI sighs heavily -- she has so much she wants and needs to say right now. She wants to be there for her newfound friend and co-counsel, pontalba. StillI rips the sticky off the mirror; wincing with the pain of the truth that has been so simply and starkly revealed by it. Reeling in the general direction of the chrome-handled door, StillI is intent upon her mission; she must respond to Peder's briliant, albeit distorted, defense. StillI fumbles, dropping the sticky to the stained tile floor where it lies, staring innocently up at the ceiling, having spoken its irrefutable truth:

We need a "hall of fame" so to speak for threads where people can go back and read archived threads. This post is just classic.

 

[StillILearn]

We need a "hall of fame" so to speak for threads where people can go back and read archived threads. This post is just classic.

That post was written by a person who had recently downed approximately two gallons of Uncle Bert's best.

Good call, SFG75.

 

[SFG75]

H.H. predicts the future? Perhaps the guy had some paranormal abilities. Re-read the first part and came across these two items.

H.H. predicts Big Haze's crush on him.

I was perfectly aware that if by any wild chance I became her lodger, she would methodically proceed to do in regard to me what taking a lodger probably meant to her all along, and I would be enmeshed in one of those tedious affairs I knew so well.-

Pg.37

H.H. predicts the circumstances for murder:

Incidentally: if I ever commit a serious murder. . . Mark the "if." The urge should be something more than the kind of thing that happened to me with Valeria. Carefully mark that then I was rather inept. If and when you wish to sizzle me to death, remember that only a spell of insanity could ever give me the simple energy to be a brute. . .

-Pg.47

Oh that Nabokov-a tricky fellow that old man is.

 

[Peder]

StillILearn

This is one of the things I have come to appreciate so greatly about this book; Nabokov's subtlety. In future, I will give the reader more credit for careful reading and reading between the lines.

I think he expected subtlety and bringing one's maximum intelligence to the task as he cleverly worked in hidden meanings, allusions, jokes, puns, and so on. He certainly expected rereading at least once. That's why I think it is fun to watch the 'telling' and not the story itself. I'm going to collect an example that is fun at one level, and at the next level will knock your socks off!

HH refers to Lo's IQ more than once, doesn't he? He says something like, "despite her high IQ, she ..." then he goes on to complain about something one might expect from a child her age, just as he measures her thighs to see if she isn't growing out of her nymphancy. I have all the sympathy in the world for this girl, and believe that her "manipulative" behavior is only the survival technique of a child who has "absolutely no one else" to turn to except for this predator.

I'm never quite sure how to take him. I think that his remarks about IQ are probably shots being taken at the psychological teting establishment and Lo is just in the line of fire. Because he wants to vent his opinion (just guessing)that IQ tests are meaningless. (Also his parody of the headmistress.) Because you are exactly right that, in so many ways, she sounds perfectly normal to me.

And he is always at her about reading Gosh! and Gulp! magazines, and her suspicion that anything more serious smacks of school work. I am prepared to think that she was simply not 'intellectual,' but not that she was stupid, because her sense of humor, at the very least, showed an imaginative streak.

And the remarks about how how she was always dirty, also leave me wondering what his message was. "She only took a shower because the soap was complimentary" is a great laugh!

Some critics have described her as the "ultimate 50's teenager." A parody maybe, but I'm not conviced. I'm still trying to decode his whole attitude toward Lolita.

Oh. I forgot. She did have her Uncle Q.

Yes! Big help.

Peder

 

[Peder]

We need a "hall of fame" so to speak for threads where people can go back and read archived threads. This post is just classic.

SFG,
You got that right! I think she should change day jobs and become a famous author, unless she is one already, in which case she just blew her cover.
Ya' hear that StillILearn? That is really the most amazing post I have ever seen on any forum I have been in!
Peder

 

[StillILearn]

H.H. predicts the future? Perhaps the guy had some paranormal abilities. Re-read the first part and came across these two items.

H.H. predicts Big Haze's crush on him.

Pg.37

H.H. predicts the circumstances for murder:

-Pg.47

Oh that Nabokov-a tricky fellow that old man is.

He also said something prophetic when he pocketed Mr Haze's pistol, do you remember that scene? I'll go looking for it after my shower.

Watch out for that Peder fellow; he will happily mess with yor mind:

So, when you read of sex, say to yourself, "Fiction, fiction, Fiction!"
And when you read of love for his daughter, say to yourself, "True, true, true!"
And when you read of erasing E. Ville, say to yourself, "Goody, goody, goody!"

 

[SFG75]

I think that his remarks about IQ are probably shots being taken at the psychological teting establishment and Lo is just in the line of fire. Because he wants to vent his opinion (just guessing)that IQ tests are meaningless. (Also his parody of the headmistress.) Because you are exactly right that, in so many ways, she sounds perfectly normal to me.

One of the items mentioned earlier in the thread was Nabokov's loathing of Freud and his pyshcological theories. The book is rife with sarcastic remarks about it. Did a simple search and came up with a 1966 NYT interview of Nabokov. Upon being asked why he detests Freud, he had the following to say:

I think he's crude, I think he's medieval, and I don't want an elderly gentleman from Vienna with an umbrella inflicting his dreams upon me. I don't have the dreams that he discusses in his books. I don't see umbrellas in my dreams. Or balloons.

I think that the creative artist is an exile in his study, in his bedroom, in the circle of his lamplight. He's quite alone there; he's the lone wolf. As soon as he's together with somebody else he shares his secret, he shares his mystery, he shares his God with somebody else.

NYT Links