Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

[Peder]

Given Nabokov's proclivities, not bloody likely.

 

[SFG75]

If the little one is looking for a father figure and crying out for attention, then that (as already suggested) seems normal enough.

OTOH if the little minx is after him as a sex partner (even unconsciously), in competition with her voracious mummy, then I think we are exactly in the classical Freudian soup. That would seem to be the exact mirror image of the Oedipus conflict, and might properly have the name Electra attached to it.

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"My dear Peder, there is no difference vetween de two. The ansuhh | vies in ze zexual unconscioussness. |
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[pontalba]

IOW, given VN's fairly obsessive detailing, and layering, I doubt very strongly that he left that to chance. Sometimes his clues are not terribly obvious. For example, in my previous post I mentioned the reactions of Lolita on p. 285-286:

Suddenly, as Avis clung to her father's neck and ear while, with a casual arm, the man enveloped his lumpy and large offspring, I saw Lolita's smile lose all its light and become a frozen little shadow of itself, and the fruit knife slipped off the table and struck her with its silver handle a freak blow on the ankle which made her gasp, and crouch head forward, and then. jumping on one leg, her face awful with the prepartory grimace which children hold till the tears gush, she was gone--to be followed at once and consoled in the kitchen by Avis who had such a wonderful fat pink dad and a small chubby brother, and a brand new baby sister, and a home, and two grinning dogs, and Lolita had nothing.

That is why I reiterate........a father is what Lolita longed for, not Humbert as a sexual partner.

 

[Peder]

!

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"My dear Peder, there is no difference vetween de two. The ansuhh | vies in ze zexual unconscioussness. |
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Well SFG,
When you put it that way.........
Especially with the man himself staring at me!

But that reminds me again of one of the major things about the Hitchens article that bothered me.
And also inclines me nore to see Nabokovs reluctance to have everything connected to the sexual unconscious.
So I shall go into the muck and do some dredging and ye shall see what I find.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but not if it is every time a male symbol.

But WDIK.
Peder

 

[Peder]

IOW, given VN's fairly obsessive detailing, and layering, I doubt very strongly that he left that to chance. Sometimes his clues are not terribly obvious. For example, in my previous post I mentioned the reactions of Lolita on p. 285-286:


That is why I reiterate........a father is what Lolita longed for, not Humbert as a sexual partner.

Pontalba,
Yes that is one of the most pathetic scenes in the book and has struck me also.

Which is why SFG's observation gets us reallly deep into the Freudian soup, i.e. if every interaction with a man is to be seen as springing from unconscious sexual desire, then how does one even define normal behavior between father and daughter? I suppose Freudians would say that their superegos (incorporating society's standards) assure that their behavior does not get out of proper bounds. no matter how much (both) their unrestrained sexual libidos might want it to. But you'll see when I find the Hitchens paragraph that I am looking for. SFG is not alone.

Peder

 

[Peder]

Incidentally, Pontalba,
That sounds like a scene where Humbert's solipsism has vanished and he is showing genuine empathy for Lo.
Peder

 

[Peder]

...and he is not thinking of jumping her

 

[pontalba]

For a welcome change. Plus this a good example of what you mentioned earlier. HH's conversion to a person that was truely disgusted with what he'd done, and someone that wished to make restitution. Not simply financially, as he did to some degree, but by also not allowing the manuscript the light of day while Lo lived.

HH was not fully aware that he would die soon, and could have wished to profit from the story, but put that aside to spare Lo any further embarrasement or publicity.

 

[SFG75]

That is why I reiterate........a father is what Lolita longed for, not Humbert as a sexual partner.

I don't doubt that her need for a father-figure was indeed an important need. At the same time, I read the following item and I see a *darker* element about her.

My duty is-to be useful. I am a friend to male animals. I obey orders. I am cheerful. . . I am thrifty and I am absolutely filthy in thought, word and deed.

She might as well have said this towards the end---

Now, I Am Become Death, Destroyer of Worlds

 

[Peder]

Wow SFG!
I think she might have said that only if she had said the previous proudly. I read the tone of her words, however, as being more like despair, or rueful commentary on how her life had turned out. I think it a poetic stretch, but a big stretch nevertheless, to suggest that she saw herself as an agent of Death. That's a little too dramatic a reading IMO.

What next? That Humbert is Everyman?
Too late! Hitchens beat you too it!
Or that Lolita is Everywoman? I just dare ya' in this forum
Peder

 

[Peder]

For a welcome change. Plus this a good example of what you mentioned earlier. HH's conversion to a person that was truely disgusted with what he'd done, and someone that wished to make restitution. Not simply financially, as he did to some degree, but by also not allowing the manuscript the light of day while Lo lived.

HH was not fully aware that he would die soon, and could have wished to profit from the story, but put that aside to spare Lo any further embarrasement or publicity.

Pontalba,
Yes, Humbert does turn into a person with some dimension and complexity once he stops being so single-mindedly a pervert. Indication, I would say, that he is walking the walk as well as talking the talk.
Peder

 

[StillILearn]

IOW, given VN's fairly obsessive detailing, and layering, I doubt very strongly that he left that to chance. Sometimes his clues are not terribly obvious. For example, in my previous post I mentioned the reactions of Lolita on p. 285-286:


That is why I reiterate........a father is what Lolita longed for, not Humbert as a sexual partner.

What pontalba has just said is just so completely obvious to me.

There is no telling how much courage it took for Lolita to 'casually'' inquire as to where her "murdered mummy" is buried. Then he's quite vicious in his response:

"Moreover," I added, "the tragedy of such an accident is somewhat cheapened by the epithet you saw fit to apply to it. If you really wish to triumph in your mind over the idea of death -- "


"Ray, "said Lo for hurray, and languidly left the room ...

This child has absolutely no way of realizing that she has any power at all in the relationship -- and HH is merciless with her. Handsome (and that counted my friends, he tells us so himself), sophisticated, over-educated, and giving every appearance of being pretty much all-powerful, HH was matching wits with a kid who thought "See you later alligator!" to be clever repertoire. Oh sure, he goes on to tell us that he stared into the fire "with smarting eyes", but his behavior doesn't change one iota for all that.

It had become gradually clear to my conventional Lolita during our singular and bestial cohabitation that even the most miserable of family lives was better than the parody of incest, which, in the long run, was the best that I could offer the waif.

 

[StillILearn]

Or that Lolita is Everywoman? I just dare ya' in this forum .

You got that right, Peder. At least so long as this Ragin' Granny still draws breath.

(Eek! The generator goes off at 6:00 PM. See ya in the morning ...)

 

[pontalba]

SFG75 The passage you quote on p.114 is part of what Lolita jokingly calls "The Girl Scout's motto". At this point Lo felt safe with HH as she thought her mother was only sick, and not dead. As bad as Charlotte was, she was some protection for Lo. I would have to say that it is simply a tongue-in-cheek rendition of said Girl Scout Motto.

At this time she'd just had the encounter with Charlie, and was hugging the 'secret' of it to herself, but still sort of waving it about at the same time. I can just see her cutting her eyes at HH thinking to herself that she was perfectly safe. To appreciate the full meaning of a statement, it must be taken in context. The most innocent of phrases can be twisted out of context. Spin.

StillILearn

This child has absolutely no way of realizing that she has any power at all in the relationship

What you say is true, but.....note when she did realize her power, she used it to the full extent possible, while still covering her fanny. That took courage plus intelligence. But she was a pretty good manipulator.

 

[pontalba]

It had become gradually clear to my conventional Lolita

Conventional..........certainly not Everywoman.

 

[Peder]

(Eek! The generator goes off at 6:00 PM. See ya in the morning ...)

StillILearn,
I'm slow on the uptake! Is your power outage connected with the storm I have been reading about? Duh? But glad you are still in contact. Hope it is 'only' the power.

Meanwhile, 'morning everyone!

The search for the missing Hitchens article will commence at daybreak, to show what Freudian interpretation of Lolita can easily lead to.
And to give some basis for understanding Nabokov's outspoken reaction to Freud.

Still black out there,
No sign at all of Mr. Sun,
Peder

 

[SFG75]

Conventional..........certainly not Everywoman.

Beautiful....innocent looking....but dangerous. Are you sure that's not every woman?

As Kanye West would sing: Now I ain't sayin' she's a gold-digguh..........

 

[pontalba]

Still black out there,
No sign at all of Mr. Sun,
Peder

looks like Mr. Sun has the right idea.... Bah Humbug!

Some people think its healthy to get up when its still pitch black outside.

I personally condsider it to be unnatural, and totally against nature.



And yes, I am aware that is a repetitive statement......emphasis, emphasis................

 

[StillILearn]

I'm slow on the uptake! Is your power outage connected with the storm I have been reading about? Duh? But glad you are still in contact. Hope it is 'only' the power.

I'm at Lake Tahoe, Peder, so we're actually happy for the moisture. The high winds just knocked out our power for a couple of days, that's all. The power is back on at present, so that's good.

SFG75 The passage you quote on p.114 is part of what Lolita jokingly calls "The Girl Scout's motto". At this point Lo felt safe with HH as she thought her mother was only sick, and not dead. As bad as Charlotte was, she was some protection for Lo. I would have to say that it is simply a tongue-in-cheek rendition of said Girl Scout Motto.

Thanks for the above, pontalba, I completely missed the fact that this was Lo's version of the Girls Scout's Motto! That's where these book clubs add so much to our enjoyment of the books.

What you say is true, but.....note when she did realize her power, she used it to the full extent possible, while still covering her fanny. That took courage plus intelligence. But she was a pretty good manipulator.

Could somebody draw my attention to a time (or two) when we can see Lo feeling that she has power? I'm thinking of when she got off the phone with Q and allowed HH to believe that she was feeling "romantic". Is that what you mean? I can see where that might be called manipulation, but it's still a bit of a stretch for me. I see it as an act of desperation -- so far as Lolita knew, she was destined to spend the rest of her life as Humbert's sex slave.

 

[pontalba]

Could somebody draw my attention to a time (or two) when we can see Lo feeling that she has power? I'm thinking of when she got off the phone with Q and allowed HH to believe that she was feeling "romantic". Is that what you mean? I can see where that might be called manipulation, but it's still a bit of a stretch for me. I see it as an act of desperation -- so far as Lolita knew, she was destined to spend the rest of her life as Humbert's sex slave.

StillILearn That was the episode I meant. But really the whole "trip". She was calling the shots, as to the scheduling of the entire trip. Of course it was orchestrated by Quilty, but she had to take over on her end. You know I didn't really think about that. It appeared that Lo had the power at that point.......but Q was calling the shots in actuality. Hmmmm. Now thats depressing. I didn't delve deeply enough into that episode to see that before.

Now that I think about it, the reader was not privy to the real episode of Lolita's power. Think about it....when she left Quilty was the most life changing decision that she made and followed thru on herself. No one to 'catch' her if she failed. Yes, she made alliances, but they were of a far different nature. They were compadre alliances, not master/slave alliances.

I'd remembered another episode that it appeared that Lo had some sort of power, look on p.133 near the bottom. That was a "power" of sorts.
And there were times later when they were at Beardsley that she tried to rend power from HH. She made him pay.....but he usually stole the money (and power) back. Beastly bugger.