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Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

Peder said:
StillILearn,
My what eagle eyes you have!
Anything would help poor old doddering me I'm getting to think! :)
But especially taking some time out to really reread the book.
If you would like to add the locations in for the general discussion that would be great. But what an observation you made! Both times in fact. :) :)

Peder

Okay, poor old doddering you, ;)

An example appears on pages 136 & 137. Lolita is describing to HH "the way in which she had been debauched." (Also described by him as "those sapphic diversions.")

"Was it Grace Angel?" I asked.
She shook her head. No it wasn't, it was the daughter of a big shot. He --
"Was it perhaps Rose Carmine?"
No, of course not. her father --
Was it then Agnes Sheridan perchance?"
She swallowed and shook her head -- and then did a double take.
"Say, how come you know all those kids?"
I explained.
"Well," she said, ""They are pretty bad, some of that school bunch, but not that bad. If you have to know, her name was Elizabeth Talbot, she goes now to a swanky private school. Her father is an executive."

HH is "more interested, however, in heterosexual experience."

Lolita, I am glad to say, held Charlie's mind and manners in the greatest contempt. Nor had her temperament been roused by that filthy fiend, In fact, I think he had rather stunned it, despite the "fun".

This scene takes place on The Morning After at the Enchanted Hunters.
 
steffee said:
Yes, I remember... it came across (at least to me) that she thought he was only interested in any competition he might have, not really in who her closest friends were. Maybe he was... I took that as the first, of relatively few, signs that he did love her, if he did (did we ever get to the bottom of that discussion?)
Steffe,
No, we never did get to the bottom of that discussion, but youall's are making excellent progress toward the bottom of this discussion! We'll get back to Humbert. I've been slow in scanning for evidence of remorsefulness, but some examples are beginning to surface even here in the discussion, whereas I had thought there would be about none to zero. So there will be more meat on the bone when we get there again. Just as seems to be the case in the grand revisiting going on here. Nothing is ever settled (I am glad to say :D). Comes with the Nabokov territory it seems.
I read the posts here and I see a totally new Lolita.
Peder
 
perceptive pontalba!

It was HH the author/narrator rather than HH the protagonist speaking here. Exactly! Now I get it.

pontalba = I thought when he spoke of not being concerned with the sex, he was speaking as the author, not the subject. IOW, let the reader imagine what must have taken place.

HH = But really these are irrelevant matters; I am not concerned with so-called "sex" at all. Anybody can imagine those elements of animality. A greater endeavor lures me on: to fix once for all the perilous magic of nymphets.
 
StillILearn Well, I certainly missed the ramifications of this!:
"Was it Grace Angel?" I asked.
She shook her head. No it wasn't, it was the daughter of a big shot. He --
"Was it perhaps Rose Carmine?"
No, of course not. her father --
Was it then Agnes Sheridan perchance?"
She swallowed and shook her head -- and then did a double take.
"Say, how come you know all those kids?"
I explained.
"Well," she said, ""They are pretty bad, some of that school bunch, but not that bad. If you have to know, her name was Elizabeth Talbot, she goes now to a swanky private school. Her father is an executive."

Good thing it wasn't a freight train....:)
 
Pontalba, Steffe,
Thanks a million for that scene! I had read the first parts of those entences, but ignored the second parts. :( :eek:
And that's exactly what I mean by seeing a new Lolita through the eyes of the discussion here. I think it is fabulous! Now I have to get back to seriously rejoining the discussion again. (I've had only one eye on the screen recently, and my other eye not on Lolita. Time to rebalance that scenario!)
Peder
 
Peder
Peder: I've been slow in scanning for evidence of remorsefulness, but some examples are beginning to surface even here in the discussion, whereas I had thought there would be about none to zero.

The largest piece of evidence is toward the end IMO when he sees her hugely pregnant, and realizes that although she is no longer 'nymphet' material he does love her. Plus of course the fact that he stipulates that his manuscript not be made public until after her death.
 
Peder said:
Pontalba, Steffe,
(I've had only one eye on the screen recently, and my other eye not on Lolita. Time to rebalance that scenario!)
Peder

:eek: What on earth have you been so carelessly casting your eyes upon, Peder?

pontalba actually moved from one room to another without taking her copy of Lolita with her, and now this!

What next? :eek:
 
At the beginning of this discussion, I had a great deal more sympathy for Humbert, and still do to some extent. He stated at the beginning of his rollercoaster ride with Lo that it really had gotten away from him as he didn't mean to actually go that far that fast in that way. IOW, he was just (hah!) going to drug her and use her unconscious body.....what a Prince!

I believe it did in fact get way beyond what he intended, and he didn't know how, or actually have the strength, or moral fibre, or whatever you want to call it to just stop.

At The Enchanted Hunters Motel, remember he said that he wished he'd just left the key at the desk and basically left the planet? I believe him.
But wishing won't.
If if were a skiff
etc.......
 
StillILearn I know, I know, she said hanging her head in abject shame.

but still I am ROTFALOLTIC!
 
StillILearn said:
:eek: What on earth have you been so carelessly casting your eyes upon, Peder?

pontalba actually moved from one room to another without taking her copy of Lolita with her, and now this!

What next? :eek:

ROTFL Still,
The world is definitely going to pot!
We shall have to grab it with our hands and set it spinning right again. :)
And I promise I won't be delinquent again, teach!. :cool:
Peder
 
re Control - Who's in charge here?

Hi all,
I read through the posts on "control" up above as they were occurring, and I had the feeling that Lolita had rather more control of her situation than I heard. If this covers old and settled territory by all means say so, or yawn, but here are my thoughts from recollection.

After Humbert captured her and they started on their cross country journeys, Humbert had to figure some way to keep Lo in line and decided on the three horrible futures that he impressed upon her consciousness if their arrangement were ever to change. That however began to unravel after a while as Humbert began to think that those threats were losing their deterrent power, i.e. Lo wa getting wise that it didn't have to turn out the way he said.

In parallel, he started the sytem of negotiated payments for her favors. Or, more exactly, he surrendered to her demand for a system of negotiated payments, I think is more exact. Here she seemed to have him over a barrel, because apparently when she said "No" she meant it, unless he would placate her in some way, for example by agreeing to her raise in rates. In fact he mentioned that he became more pliant toward her deliberately to keep her in a good mood for his approaches. And he also mentioned, in exasperation, that in negotiating payments she was very difficult to deal with. Plus there was one scene where he crawled to her on all fours and, when her reaction was "Oh no, not again!" he desisted. Finally he did agree to "a party with boys" much against his main wishes, just to keep things smooth with the school is my guess. He gave in as necessary in all circumstances.

When the second journey began it was because she suggested it and also said, "now we're going to do this one my way." She kept busy with the map and called the shots on where they went, and when, and he never objected to any of it.

She may not have had "anywhere to go."
But on the other hand there was nothing else he could do, either.
(Unless of course he was going to be a real ogre and keep her chained in a basement someplace. :( :( :()

So she gradually moved from a situation of merely keeping him at a negotiated arm's length, to a situation where she was really calling the shots. He was deathly afraid that he/they would have serious trouble with the law, of course, but by his nature he seemed also to want treat her in as civil, and loving (?), a manner as he could. He wanted to be nice to her, because that was really his view of himself as a generous man, I suspect. He gave her presents and gave her whatever she asked for, except her freedom. And he did mention that the continued travel was really costing him, but he did not resort to harsh measures.

At first I imagine she didn't have a constructve idea of what she would do with her freedom, so it was a deterrent thought, but gradually she put it together and worked out the plan with Q.

I'm not sure whether to call that manipulative or controlling.
He had her in a cage so to speak by limiting her physical freedom.
But in return she had the better of him psychologically, and used that leverage to keep him in place. That she was ruthless in twisting the knife (throwing the words incest and rape at him), and didn't care at all about the sex, must have reinforced the idea to him that she had him. And that he was in the proverbial position of having a tiger by the tail.
Eventually the tables turned and she got the better of him.

At their parting, he tried gently to reason with her, but she again said no, and he realized the game was finally up and went quietly. Which I would say is to his credit.

Having said all that, I suppose I would describe it more as a contest of wills, with each side doing what they could to prevail, but with both also limited in what they could do by their shared circumstances. Sort of like checkers on a very small board.

Anyway, that's one and one-half cents. Anyone with two cents prevails. :)
(I'm learning :D )

Peder
 
Peder
You have struck paydirt and given a marvelous analysis of the interplay between HH and Lolita. And as far as the manipulative vs. control issue, I would have to say that she manipulated in order to control and in that gained power.

(by Peder)--When the second journey began it was because she suggested it and also said, "now we're going to do this one my way." She kept busy with the map and called the shots on where they went, and when, and he never objected to any of it.

Yes, but she also had arranged everything with Quilty beforehand (as you say in your post). Now what I wonder, and what is actually unknowable for the reader is this.....who made the actual plan....Lo or Quilty?

(by Peder).....he was in the proverbial position of having a tiger by the tail.
Eventually the tables turned and she got the better of him.

Perfect Analogy!:cool: ;) :D

Instead of calling your analogy a paltry one and a half cents, I have to say its at least a dollar's worth!

Yay!:D
 
Pontalba,
You are 'way too generous ,,,, as usual. I think it is that warmer climate you live in. :) Makes you mellow. :) :) :)

Offhand, I would have easily agreed with "manipulative" for the second tour, where she was calling the shots while he totally didn't understand the maneuvers being made against him. The earlier scenes, and throughout, when he knew exactly what was going on ("no pay, no favors") sounded to me more like the working out of a power play, or perhaps extortion.

So I decided to check the on-line dictionary. Guess what?

Manipulative: Skillful at influencing or controlling others to your own advantage

Bingo! I would say you nailed it, in any and all cases! When he knew what was going on, and when he didn't, she was getting her way with him. And from a position of seeming relative weakness! That even sounds like Master-level manipulation to me! His undoubted efforts to manipulate her, or even dominate her, for his own benefit sound paltry in comparison. He couldn't get what he wanted simply on demand, She could. So that clarifies it for me.

Now, I wonder does "controlling" say "skillful at influencing or manipulating others to your own ......? " But, no! No! I won't go there! Exercise for the student! :D

CUL, :)
Peder
 
OTOH.....
Control: the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events: or controlling: determine the behaviour or supervise the running of____.
(The Oxford American Dictionary)

The difference in the dictionary is slight. However the common usage is slipperier (to me). Control has a more dominating tone, whereas manipulate has a softer, behind the scene feel to it. Sneaky if you will.

They are somewhat interchangable, but with a far different "feel" to them.

Now, as far as Mellow.................the older I get, the more mellow I get.:) ;)
 
pontalba said:
...whereas manipulate has a softer, behind the scene feel to it. Sneaky if you will.
Pontalba,
That was certainly the way I felt about it too, and I think most most people. It is not a 'nice' word to describe somebody. And that is why I could see it for the second half but not quite for the first half. But, in the literal sense, the definition fits both halves. WDIK. Only what I read :confused: And on the Web? We know about that place. :rolleyes:

Now, as far as Mellow.................the older I get, the more mellow I get.:) ;)

Oh, yew cain't fool me! I know it is the weather. :) :) :)

So,
Word definitions 5 cents
Correct definitions 10 cents
:)
Peder
 
Peder
I see your point regarding the first and second "halves', and pretty much agree upon reflection. But with shading.:)

Lolita was in an untenable position. HH had the power (she thought) to make her stay with him and keep quiet about the true nature of the relationship. [I use the term relationship loosely :rolleyes: ]. Now in reality, she had the power to open her mouth and yell loudly, and have him put under
the jail. Her ignorance and fear of 'the orphanage' kept her quiet. So he kept her under control thru fear etc, and she manipulated/controlled him thru his peversion. Because once he let the situation get out of hand, [in his eyes], he was trapped.

The thing with life is that its all a series of prisons in a broad sense. We just have to get into one that we don't want to slip the bars. :)
 
pontalba writes:

At The Enchanted Hunters Motel, remember he said that he wished he'd just left the key at the desk and basically left the planet? I believe him.

I think this was the new and revised HH (author/narrator) speaking again, as he writes:

In a few minutes -- say, twenty, say half-an-hour, sicher ist sicher as my uncle Gustave used to say -- (huh?) I would let myself into that "342" and find my nymphet, my beauty and bride, emprisioned in her crystal sleep. Jurors! If my happiness could have talked, it would have filled that genteel hotel with a deafening roar. And my only regret today is that I did not quietly deposit key "342" at the office, and leave the town, the country, the continent, the hemisphere, -- indeed, the globe -- that very same night.
 
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