Vladimir Nabokov: Pnin

[Breaca]

Breaca, Pontalba,
I had thought that it would be Liza's overdose and near death that Timofey held against VV, in addition to his cruel treatment of her poetry.
As to who knew what when, didn't Liza later say to VV "I told him everything and he forgives you" ? Or do I have the wrong conversation about the wrong person between the wrong characters in the wrong book? One of those should fit!
PS But, Pontalba, as usual you see more subtle things more clearly, and those early contacts may well have colored the whole relationship. Freud rides again into the no man's land of VN's story.

Whatever it was that Pnin held against VV certainly was only reinforced by VVs reaction to Liza. And we only have Liza's word of Pnin's forgiveness. I wonder what it was about Pnin that so fascinated VV. I get the impression that VV saw Pnin as one of his insects to be pinned and studied. Perhaps he found it intriquing how Pnin blundered and stumbled along in life but always managed to remain upright - I say this yet again in reference to VVs feeling cheated at happy endings (unnatural and unethical).

 

[steffee]

I am wondering, VV is a narrator, and the general gist is that TP didn't like VV, which is what VV says is so, not what TP says.

Could it be that VV didn't like TP? Because he took his place, so to speak; and VV assumed, because generally, people are not all that comfortable around their partner's ex-partners, and vice versa, that TP just would dislike him for those reasons, and because of Liza's obvious love/obsession(?) with VV at one point. But TP doesn't strike me as being a resentful kind of man, so maybe he was indifferent towards VV, maybe even a little uncomfortable around him, which VV interpreted as dislike.

Are we clear that VN, VV, TP, everyone, disliked Eric and Liza Wind?

I am still wondering whether Chateau could be a (albeit teeny) narrator too...
​

 

[Peder]

Peder
Pnin denied knowledge of VV before Liza. On p.179-180, chap 7.3

Very next paragraph...


So, if Pnin denied knowledge of any relationship with VV prior
to VV's relationship with Liza..........what was the reason for his dislike?

The Class thing is the only explanation I can come up with.

Well, Pontalba,
With my inability to see anything but the obvious, in contrast to some other people I know and of whom I am talking to one right now, I just assumed that Timofey denied knowing VV, there where you mention, for the same reason that he later shouted across the room to VV's listener to not believe a thing VV said. The reason for Timofey's behavior I have never been able to really understand (except as underlying hostility from some source), but those two denials seemed so similar as to be connected to me, and I discounted any truth in either of them.
And since her overdose came after Timofey and VV were acquainted (I think), and especially since in any event she filled in Timofey on how VV had treated her, I assumed that was enough. But, the episode of Timofey and a friend wanting to use VV's aunt's barn could well have colored Timofey's feeling toward VV then, even though Timofey denies ever having seen him on that occasion. Or also in Timofey's fathers office as well, with similar denial. So I tend to believe you and Breaca that it could have gone back a long way to his roots, and to not at all believe Timofeys denials.
Tis a puzzle,
/oops, now why did I think of just that word?/
Peder

 

[Peder]

I am wondering, VV is a narrator, and the general gist is that TP didn't like VV, which is what VV says is so, not what TP says.

Could it be that VV didn't like TP? Because he took his place, so to speak; and VV assumed, because generally, people are not all that comfortable around their partner's ex-partners, and vice versa, that TP just would dislike him for those reasons, and because of Liza's obvious love/obsession(?) with VV at one point. But TP doesn't strike me as being a resentful kind of man, so maybe he was indifferent towards VV, maybe even a little uncomfortable around him, which VV interpreted as dislike.

Are we clear that VN, VV, TP, everyone, disliked Eric and Liza Wind?

I am still wondering whether Chateau could be a (albeit teeny) narrator too...
​

Steffee,
I agree with everthing you say, even the discrepancy re Pnin's character. And I also have wondered at Chateau's lack of presence and not telling his part of the story. But I just couldn't find a place for him. So I finally just assigned the two middle chapters (4, 5) to the Omniscient Narrator. I do agree that the Winds were very disliked by everyone but, as a techicality I'm not sure that VV (the character) ever knew them as a couple, just Liza in her 'sweet' phase. When did she ever grow those fangs?

The reason I think we accept Pnin as disliking VV is because of the cryptic remark in the Intro to The Annotated Lolita where it is said that those readers who "believe that the narrator of Pnin is really perplexed by Pnin's animosity toward him" are not seeing very well and are losing the game to the author. In fact the more I look at that Introduction the more I now like it and undersatnd it --even if not that exact remark

Peder

 

[pontalba]

Perhaps we are not meant to look at it in a linear fashion. But as far as I can tell. First of all VV knew TP in their youth. Then they met accidently at the cafe where all were present. Pnin, Vladimirovich, and Liza. That is where VV met Liza for the first time and Pnin denied knowing VV. Then VV was asked by Liza to look at her poetry (etchings ), and the affair between Liza and VV began. Then she attempted suicide, Timofey wrote letter proposing, she showed the letter to VV to make him come back to her (how she got that is beyond me, he'd already insulted her, and left!). Then she married Timofey. /sigh/ So what am I missing???

 

[steffee]

Pontalba - do you wish TP had never married Liza?
​

 

[pontalba]

Pontalba - do you wish TP had never married Liza?
​

Without a doubt! Well, except for the fact he would not have known Victor, and Victor did bring pleasure to him.

OTOH, its a good thing that he didn't marry Betty whatsit too. Remember he said before the party (to himself) that

....vaguely experienced a twinge of sadness. He reflected that there was a time he might have courted her--would have done so, in fact, had she not had a servant maid's mind, which had remained unaltered too.

Now Steffee, you have brought up something about this marriage stuff, and when I looked up the above passage, it made me notice how Timofey thought about "Class" (of persons). He thought of Betty as a "servant maid" type, now I know it was her lack of curiosity and intelligence that he was thinking of, but I find it highly informative of the way he thought. The way he classified her in his mind. Maybe he was not "aristo" like VV, but he was not of the "servant class" either.

The Class distinction was quite important in those days. America was a great leveler to anyone that came over here, but the old traditions still held, even if only subconciously.

 

[steffee]

I suppose class distinction was important then, but some people, and I reckon TP was one of them, can act as thought they are of a higher class than they are. Meaning of course, the poorest of folk can live like someone of a higher class, and of course, vice versa. It's all in the way one view's themselves and portrays themselves to others.
​

 

[pontalba]

I think it was important to them because at that point thats all they had of the old days to cling to. I didn't get the impression that Pnin tried to pretend to be of a "higher class" than he actually was. I feel as though he felt that VV looked down on him for it though, and thats what he resented. And maybe he was right.

 

[pontalba]

Ahh...here is something I just found in Boyd's VN: The American Years
p.277

Aristocratic, poised, successful in love and work, narrator Nabokov could not be less like poor awkward Pnin. Where Pnin bungles elementary English, Nabokov proves a marvelous stylist in his adopted language. But he lacks Pnin's moral fineness. Defensive of his own privacy, he passes quickly over his embarrassing role in Liza's attempted suicide, but then publishes in toto Pnin's letter to Liza, violating Pnin's own wistful principle.....

But all of that still came after Pnin's outburst.......

 

[steffee]

No, I don't mean he pretended to be of a higher class, just that his mannerisms made him a higher class.

There's a famous quote about it, I'll try and find it as I'm not wording this very well

 

[Peder]

Perhaps we are not meant to look at it in a linear fashion. But as far as I can tell. First of all VV knew TP in their youth. Then they met accidently at the cafe where all were present. Pnin, Vladimirovich, and Liza. That is where VV met Liza for the first time and Pnin denied knowing VV. Then VV was asked by Liza to look at her poetry (etchings ), and the affair between Liza and VV began. Then she attempted suicide, Timofey wrote letter proposing, she showed the letter to VV to make him come back to her (how she got that is beyond me, he'd already insulted her, and left!). Then she married Timofey. /sigh/ So what am I missing???

Pontalba,
That sounds exactly correct, so what am I missing?
I would only add "Then years later she said she had told Toiimofey everything, at the same gathering where Timofey again said VV was wrong in what he was saying." But that doesn't change anything I don't think, except to put Timofey fully in the know about everything. So I see nothing wrong with Timofey's animosity arising at first out of his childhood contacts with VV, and then only being intensified by VV's shabby regard for Liza later. With VV's appointment instead of Timefey to head up the new Russian department finally being the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe that's when he really erupted, reading VV's letter offering him, Pnin, a position in the new department instead of its chairmanship. He had been quite clear with Hagen that the chairmanship was his dream. So that's a long sequence of events whch may have increasingly rubbed Pnin the wrong way.

Does something not fit? Except hostility not sounding like a part of Timofey's makeup. as Steffe has observed.

PS And boy are you fast! You did the chronology that I thought I would try when I sat down here just now, but there it was already! Spee-dee!

Peder

 

[pontalba]

Doesn't sound like you missed anything. I missed the part about Pnin wanting the directorship of the Russian Dept.! Went clear outta my little pea brain. That was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak. Thats why he left, not because of VV specifically........but the combination of Who was going to take the position that Timofey wanted, and above of all felt he deserved!

Yup, ya put the icing on the cake.

 

[pontalba]

First off Timofey felt embarrased when his father made over him in front of VV. And the play episode as well.
Secondly, he meets VV later in Paris while VV is making like a big shot. Timofey probably felt as though VV was being consending towards him, thus his response. Silly as it was.
Thirdly, everything VV did to Liza. But I have to tell you, Liza put herself in the way of VV's treatment of her. Not that that excuses his treatment in any way, but he did act like a cad.
Then on top of all of that, VV is given what Timofey considers his (Pnin's) rightful position.

No wonder he went off like a firecracker! Who wouldn't? I know for a fact I'd have been out of there in a trice! Or is that a New York Minute?

 

[Peder]

Doesn't sound like you missed anything. I missed the part about Pnin wanting the directorship of the Russian Dept.! Went clear outta my little pea brain. That was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak. Thats why he left, not because of VV specifically........but the combination of Who was going to take the position that Timofey wanted, and above of all felt he deserved!

Yup, ya put the icing on the cake.

Pontalba,
Actually, fact checking just now, I see that it was tenure that Pnin was looking forward to after nine years, and 'soon' becoming Assistant Emeritus. So I overstated it a bit. But he could well still have felt the same affront to his hopes, with an outsider being brought in over him whereas he had himself hoped to advance. That could possibly mean an end to advancement for a long time to come, but it would at least indicate who they thought was more valuable. (And now we're talking about male feelings in the male world. )
Peder

 

[Peder]

a trice! Or is that a New York Minute?

ROTFALOL, Pontalba,
I'm not sure, but it should be!
I'll go look it up.
Peder

 

[Breaca]

Aaargghh I'm getting dizzy from running around in circles looking for more clues to this strange relationship between VV and TP. They both give off conflicting signals. And it's more confusisng to read, 'I hurried past the rear truck, and had another glimpse of my old friend, in tense profile.....', when you don't get a feel of any friendship as such between the two fellows

PS: The quotes taken from final chapter as VV espies TP driving off.

 

[Peder]

Aaargghh I'm getting dizzy from running around in circles looking for more clues to this strange relationship between VV and TP. They both give off conflicting signals. And it's more confusisng to read, 'I hurried past the rear truck, and had another glimpse of my old friend, in tense profile.....', when you don't get a feel of any friendship as such between the two fellows

PS: The quotes taken from final chapter as VV espies TP driving off.

Breaca,
That's a wonderful point!!!!
Just who is pulling whose leg where?
I won't even begin to try to guess.
Peder

That's what we have Pontalba for. hard questions like that. /smilie/

 

[Peder]

Breaca,
Can it possibly be that VV is totally o-b-l-i-v-i-o-u-s, oblivious?
About everything and anything?
Boggles the mind!
Peder

 

[pontalba]

Breaca,
Can it possibly be that VV is totally o-b-l-i-v-i-o-u-s, oblivious?
About everything and anything?
Boggles the mind!
Peder

Thats exactly what it seems to me at least. At least to Timofey's feelings in general. Wait, I feel a Boyd moment coming on.......ok, I found it, here it is.
VN: The American Years p/286-87--

....Nabokov sets all of Pnin's life available to him as author against the little that Nabokov the narrator can see, to stress that in this life none can know directly another's pain. But if we cannot know the pain our actions cause others, we can and should try to imagine it. Only through the imagination can we mortals act with sufficient thought for another's pain, and on this level of our real lives evan a novelist's or a novel-reader, you or I--will often fall short.

Omniscient Author? I would say........yes.