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Vladimir Nabokov: Pnin

pontalba said:
The basis for my reasoning goes back centuries, when land being inherited by the children (sons) of the land holder were the one wielding the power. Land was Power. Kingdoms and the like depended on the proper passing of the land/power. Still does as far as that goes. I wasn't only speaking of literature induced theories.

Nuttin' feminist about that can of worms. :rolleyes:

But I wasn't clear enough in my previous post. :)
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Pontalba,
I was less than clear also.
No doubt that can of worms you mention is all masculine worms. :D And I think that is exactly what modern-day feminists would point to as males arranging society, and the power to run it, to suit themselves. Some further would argue that literature that does not challenge that arrangement, in effect endorses it, and therefore aids in it continuance. And not much literature challenged male dominance until recent years, certainly not literature written by male authors.

With two modern daughters, I have learned that there are a whole 'nother set of P's & Q's regarding gender issues that I have to mind carefully. :)
So it wasn't so much what you were saying that caused my response, as much as the fact that the discussion was of gender-based outlooks themselves. And my thought was that gender-based discussions of any sort, even of literature, do not pass quietly in certain quarters. So I commented from a different viewpoint, hopefully without ruffling feelings.

Peder
 
Peder said:
So I commented from a different viewpoint, hopefully without ruffling feelings.
Peder
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Certainly not in this quarter. To my way of thinking, its like the rest of life, ever changing. And I wouldn't throw it all on the male of the species either. But thats another forum. :D

I will add this. Everything in our lives is gender based. We are Men and Women. So What? So for anyone to take offense at another's gently put viewpoint is not necessary.
 
pontalba said:
..As far as Eric Wind is concerned...arrrggghhh! Horrible man. First he, while still married himself, has an affair with a married woman, and when she becomes pregnant, lets her go back to her husband in order to make it easier for her to get to America. Then sneakily confronts Timofey with that knowledge on the ship when no other option is viable for Timofey. Wind is a sneak, a coward and a bum in general. IMHO. :mad:

I don't think Hagen could help himself. Remember the long speech he gave Timofey about how he had given 29 years of his life to an apparently unresponsive institution? He'd just had it with that place, and felt he had to look after his future. I don't blame him at all, he was between a rock and hard place. He wasn't mean or anything. Just trapped. :(

And now I'd better get my tea. :rolleyes:
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Pontalba,
You have Eric Wind pegged exactly! I don't know of anything to say in his favor either.
For Hagen, I would have offered somewhat more generous impulses. He was Timofey's friend and protector, after all, so I think he wanted to warn Timofey in the gentlest way possible that he shouldn't be making any financial commitments for a house just then. And I think he did it quite smoothly, although there is of course no very good way to tell a person they will no longer have a job and make it palatable to them. But I think he believed it was better to try than to ignore the situation, and for undertaking that unhappy but honorable task he deserves a plus mark. The way of the real world is much more brutal about it from what I have seen.

Peder
 
Peder said:
For Hagen, I would have offered somewhat more generous impulses. He was Timofey's friend and protector, after all, so I think he wanted to warn Timofey in the gentlest way possible that he shouldn't be making any financial commitments for a house just then. And I think he did it quite smoothly, although there is of course no very good way to tell a person they will no longer have a job and make it palatable to them. But I think he believed it was better to try than to ignore the situation, and for undertaking that unhappy but honorable task he deserves a plus mark. The way of the real world is much more brutal about it from what I have seen.

Peder
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Well, actually I meant that when I encapsulated by saying "between a rock and a hard place", which is what it was. He was morally obligated to tell his friend the awful truth so Timofey would not be financially ruined. My shorthand, :eek:

Did you see the list of 1001 books to be read before we die? over in Listology? Nabokov made it with Ada, Pale Fire, Pnin, and Lolita. At least thats all I've seen so far.
 
Loss of Culture

What struck me several times during Pnin, was how effectively the Russian Civil War, like all wars really, caused so much loss of a culture, and feeling for ones Past. When Timofey visited Cook's Castle, sometimes referred to as The Pines there was one such instance. p.118 chap 5.2:
Pnin and Chateau, both born in the late nineties of the nineteenth century, were comparative youngsters. Most of the other men had seen sixty and had trudged on. On the other hand, a few of the ladies, such as Countess Poroshin and Madam Bolotov, were still in their late forties and, thanks to the hygienic atmosphere of the New World, had not only preserved, but improved, their good looks. Some parents brought their offspring with them--healthy, tall indolent, difficult American children of college age, with no sense of nature, and no Russian, and no interest whatsoever in the niceties of their parents' backgroungs and pasts. They seemed to live at The Pines on a physical and mental plane entirely different from that of their parents: now and they passing from their own level to ours through a kind of interdimensional shimmer; responding curtly to a well-meaning Russian joke or anxious piece of advice, and then fading away again; keeping always aloof (so that one felt one had engendered a brood of elves), .............
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Now in a way it sounds like (what we consider) typical generational split going on, however Nabokov did not deal in "typical". So I must assume that he means something far deeper than this. It is a tragedy to lose ones past and a way of life that has gone on for as long as anyone can remember. I feel as though that is what Nabokov is highlighting here.
 
Another by product of being run out of ones country is feelings of rootlessness, homelessness and general disconnection. But Timofey was reconnecting with the new house he was planning to purchase. He felt so secure in his position. p.144 chap 6.4
The sense of living in a discrete building all by himself was to Pnin something singularly delightful and amazingly satisfying to a weary old want of his inner most self, battered and stunned by thirty-five years of homelessness. One of the sweetest things about the place was the silence--angelic, rural, and perfectly secure.......With grateful surprise, Pnin thought that had there been no Russian Revolution, no exodus, no expatriation in France, no naturalization in America, everything --at the best, at the best, Timofey!--would have been much the same: a professorship in Kharkov or Kazan, a suburban house such as this, old books within, late blooms without.
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Then to have it torn from him.....again. But torn by what? He did not have to go did he? Vladimirovich actually wanted him to stay on with honor, his own position. But, again, the specter of Liza interfered. But wait...is that really it? Pnin refuted and rejected Vladimirovich before Liza came into his life.
 
pontalba said:
What struck me several times during Pnin, was how effectively the Russian Civil War, like all wars really, caused so much loss of a culture, and feeling for ones Past. When Timofey visited Cook's Castle, sometimes referred to as The Pines there was one such instance. p.118 chap 5.2:

Now in a way it sounds like (what we consider) typical generational split going on, however Nabokov did not deal in "typical". So I must assume that he means something far deeper than this. It is a tragedy to lose ones past and a way of life that has gone on for as long as anyone can remember. I feel as though that is what Nabokov is highlighting here.
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Pontalba,
I think you really have your finger on a meaning of the book beyond just what the words say. You remind me that someplace he said of his losses, when he fled Russia, that it was not the loss of the money that he mourned but the tradition, or way-of-life, or some similar word. As usual I don't know where to look for that thought but he really did emphasize that the keenest loss was more along the lines that you just mentioned.

In another context he also expresses a similar regret that the emigre community in Berlin has never received what he felt was its true recognition, which he says is mainly because the Soviet government worked so hard to unjustly denigrate the emigres (as drunks, dissidents, malcontents, crackpots or whatever) that they were always regarded somewhat suspiciously in the west.

Altogether these views emphasize the idea that he lived with his heart and his loyalties and was not a materialistic man -- which probably doesn't sound too surprising. To try to see his personality in clearer focus, behind all the layers he creates, sounds like a worthwhile notion to keep in mind as we read, and your post sounds like the beginning of that. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

Food for thought,
And very interesting
Peder
 
pontalba said:
Another by product of being run out of ones country is feelings of rootlessness, homelessness and general disconnection. But Timofey was reconnecting with the new house he was planning to purchase. He felt so secure in his position. p.144 chap 6.4
Then to have it torn from him.....again. But torn by what? He did not have to go did he? Vladimirovich actually wanted him to stay on with honor, his own position. But, again, the specter of Liza interfered. But wait...is that really it? Pnin refuted and rejected Vladimirovich before Liza came into his life.
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Pontalba,
"He did not have to go, did he?" is another thought provoking question! No he didn't, it would seem, except for his dislike of VV and his unwillingness to work for him. Is that another example of heart and inner emotion in conflict with calmer reasonableness? There's no indication that VN thinks less of Timofey for acting as he did; in fact it might be said VN regards it as perfectly understandable. So Timofey was still angry enough at VV for his unfriendliness toward Liza 30 years ago that he preferred to uproot and move on (again). It's hard to say he shouldn't have, but he decided that he would rather endure the risks of leaving rather than knuckle under. Perhaps one calls that a 'romantic' attitude rather than a practical one. Or perhaps some might call it foolish, but not me especially. I have known the feeling.
But in the background we do know that Nabokov liked Timofey best of all his characters (Lolita second), because despite whatever hardship or disappointment came his way, Timofey persevered and kept on going. (Another quote that I can't find so quickly :( )

As a detail that doesn't fit, it sounded to me like they both were getting along after the meeting in NY when they decided to take the bus up to the eighties together. Timofey wan't angry enough, then, to snub VV it seemed to me. So I guess Timofey just drew the line where he did. A man of strong inner passion and conviction.

BTW, It sounds like you were in a calm and philosophical mood last night to be able to reflect so well on unstated and larger aspects of the entire story. It must be the tea that does it. :) But don't stop! :D

Peder
 
Pontalba,
And which list of 1001 books to read before we die?
I just hate it when you do inscrutable. :D :D :D :p
Peder
 
pontalba said:
Heh, heh, heh............:D . Its listed by centuries. :rolleyes:
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Which, I have a feeling, is what it's going to take. And I'm only talking about Nabokov in this instance. (This being a good thing.)
 
Peder said:
Pontalba,

As a detail that doesn't fit, it sounded to me like they both were getting along after the meeting in NY when they decided to take the bus up to the eighties together. Timofey wan't angry enough, then, to snub VV it seemed to me. So I guess Timofey just drew the line where he did. A man of strong inner passion and conviction.

BTW, It sounds like you were in a calm and philosophical mood last night to be able to reflect so well on unstated and larger aspects of the entire story. It must be the tea that does it. :) But don't stop! :D

Peder
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They did seem to get along then didn't they? I have to go back and check over again to see if I can find out why Timofey dislikes VV so much. I know its not Liza, at least not initially.

Back Later.
:D
 
Looks like some rereading is in order to get a fuller understanding of the relationship between VV and Pnin. I've still not got my head around the true nature of their relationship. As the narrator VV must have had substantial interaction with our Timofey to convey his character so eloquently (even though, I know, in reality it's all VN) and that conveys more than just passing acquaintancy. But I do get the impression that Pnin wasn't that impressed with VV. VV himself says he was rather arrogent (even at age 16) and this, IMO, would have put Pnin off. And the way Pnin always denied remembering him makes me think that Pnin didn't appreciate VVs efforts in tryihg to ingraciate himself. And maybe, just maybe, Pnin did not trust VV ('I have always had the impression that his entomology was merely a pose').

Does any of this make sense - VN has a way of making you doubt yourself - or is that just me. Then again I guess it's his way of saying 'you'll just have to reread the darn book'.:D
 
I don't know the real reasoning behind Pnin disliking, so immediately VV. It definitely was before Liza. The only thing I can think of is that Timofey felt the arrogance of VV, and having been embarrassed by VV in his youth, could not manage to overcome those feelings in inadequacy that VV engendered (unknowingly) in him.

Timofey's father was so proud of his son, and bragged to VV (as a youth) about TP's grades etc. TP was not a particularly attractive child, and of a "lower class" than VV. So, along with the embarrassment factor and the class factor something snapped in Timofey. He took VV's attempts of friendliness for something else. Perhaps he thought VV was looking down on him. I really think it all goes back to the aristo/serf mentality.

I know this is rather disjointed, but I'm feeling my way here. I know exactly what I mean.....:rolleyes: but am having difficulty putting it across. :confused:

Of course Liza threw more gasoline on that fire.....
 
re Timofey/Liza/VV

Breaca, Pontalba,
I had thought that it would be Liza's overdose and near death that Timofey held against VV, in addition to his cruel treatment of her poetry.
As to who knew what when, didn't Liza later say to VV "I told him everything and he forgives you" ? Or do I have the wrong conversation about the wrong person between the wrong characters in the wrong book? One of those should fit! :D
:confused:
Peder

PS But, Pontalba, as usual you see more subtle things more clearly, and those early contacts may well have colored the whole relationship. Freud rides again into the no man's land of VN's story. :D
 
pontalba said:
Now in a way it sounds like (what we consider) typical generational split going on, however Nabokov did not deal in "typical". So I must assume that he means something far deeper than this. It is a tragedy to lose ones past and a way of life that has gone on for as long as anyone can remember. I feel as though that is what Nabokov is highlighting here.
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Funny thing about culture is that it's ingrained in everyone. Youngsters may try to ignore it but it always returns to them in adulthood. Growing up you can't help but take at least a portion of it with you - it's there in the nurturing we receive from parents and relatives and from the extended circle of family friends. What appeared tedious and boring as youngsters we look back upon with fondness in our later years. Funny thing this life we lead.....

Living with one culture whilst living within another I think is always more difficult for the older ones - they'd have had a lot more time and experience invested in thier 'old' culture - more ties - more memories (personal and passed on by parents and grandparents).
 
Peder
Pnin denied knowledge of VV before Liza. On p.179-180, chap 7.3
He said he vaguely recalled my grandaunt but had never met me..........and noticing how reluctant he was to recognize his own past, I switched to another, less personal, topic.
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Very next paragraph...

Presently I grew aware that a striking-looking young girl in a black silk sweater, with a golden band around her brown hair, had become my chief listener. ........Liza Bogolepov,a medical student who also wrote poetry. She asked me if she could send me for apprasisal a batch of her poems.
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So, if Pnin denied knowledge of any relationship with VV prior
to VV's relationship with Liza..........what was the reason for his dislike?

The Class thing is the only explanation I can come up with. :confused:
 
Peder wrote--PS But, Pontalba, as usual you see more subtle things more clearly, and those early contacts may well have colored the whole relationship. Freud rides again into the no man's land of VN's story.
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Hah! Usually one has to hit me over the head with a baseball bat to get it thru my noggin! I just can't think of a better explanation. Its probably something Breaca will find! Like the sister in The Enchanter :rolleyes: :p :cool:

And it may not be the wise course to mention Freud. I mean the Viennese Quack!
 
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