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Vladimir Nabokov: The Enchanter

Hi there tomato!
Originally posted by tomato
I didn't quote any professional literature from that time because there wasn't any.
Nabokov must have come up with these insights from introspection.


Maybe not introspection so much as observation. Remember during that time period he had a young son, and he and his wife and child did a great deal of exploring of public parks in Paris at the time. Who knows what he saw.
I just finished (a bit ago) Speak, Memory and he speaks quite fondly and throughly of that time period.

Plus as you know I am sure, he did quite a bit of "observation" of girl children for Lolita, riding on school buses etc.
 
pontalba said:
Peder
The Boyd's are excellent references, as you well know, but honestly sometimes the reasonings he comes up with for Nabokov's plot lines are, well just not on the mark. At least not IMHO. And this time I do mean the humble. :D Lots of times I don't. :D :eek:

It was quite cruel of Boyd to put that particular picture of VN on the cover of The American Years. If I were VN, I would haunt him forever for it.
 
StillILearn said:
It was quite cruel of Boyd to put that particular picture of VN on the cover of The American Years. If I were VN, I would haunt him forever for it.
:eek: SIL!
Are you serious?
Because I really like that pic of Nabokov. The look on his face speaks volumes!
To me it is the picture of a very secure man that knows exactly what he is doing and if someone else doesn't like it.....too bloody bad!
Little bit of a smarte aleck, our VN. :cool:
 
To re-collect the context for those of us who don't rtemember it -- like me -- here is original post #483:

Peder said:
In a different vein, I came across the following quite accidentally

Psychoanalyze Humbert

It is a list at amazon by an informed reader using quotes from Lolita interleaved with his own reactions (and humor), -- and mentioning a fair number of related books so approach with extreme caution! :eek:
In any event I thought it made interesting light reading on the heavy topic of Humbert's pedophilia.

Peder
 
And here is original post #491

Peder said:
SFG
Yes the books definitely look like serious books on the topic. I was amused though, at his light-hearted approach to laying out his thoughts and information, especially "Hey, Pops, if you really want to do something for me, go see a movie for a couple hours.." :D As for getting really far inside Humbert's head, that wasn't really on my mind. I myself can live with a considerable degree of imprecision in understanding Humbert's gray cells, especially since I'm not necessarily convinced yet that he is that realistically drawn. He is a fictional character, and Nabokov was writing fiction, not a psychiatric manual, so my gut tells me it may be a very vague connection to try to pursue. If one were really in the Nabokovian research game, then it would be the original materials from his era that Nabokov used for his research that I would be more interested in finding and seeing.
So I really meant the list for reading as pastime, rather than for purchasing the books. A psychiatrist who specifically wrote up his conclusions re Humbert (if he could) would be interesting to read. But reading the research background myself, and then trying to make the connection to Humbert, is above my pay grade, I think.
Peder
 
And here, minus quoted quotes is the authors response, original post # 638 repeated for ready reference

tomato said:
I am the author of that article.
I didn't quote any professional literature from that time because there wasn't any.
Nabokov must have come up with these insights from introspection.



I haven't found any such writing, but here is one psychiatrist who thinks Nabokov was a pedophile:

Centerwall, B. S. 1992. Vladimir Nabokov: A case study in pedophilia. Psychoanalysis and Contemporary Thought 15: 199-239.

Sorry for what may seem like needless repetition, but I have difficulty integrating posts and thoughts across such a long time frame and so many intervening posts.
Now to ponder,
Peder
 
pontalba said:
:eek: SIL!
Are you serious?
Because I really like that pic of Nabokov. The look on his face speaks volumes!
To me it is the picture of a very secure man that knows exactly what he is doing and if someone else doesn't like it.....too bloody bad!
Little bit of a smarte aleck, our VN. :cool:

Are you looking at The American Years? :eek: The word effete occurs. This had to be VN at his pictorial worst.
 
Peder said:
And here, minus quoted quotes is the authors response, original post # XX repeated for ready reference



Sorry for what may seem like needless repetition, but i have difficulty integrating posts and thoughts across such a long time frame and so many intervening posts.
Now to ponder,
Peder

I hope tomato hasn't gone away mad. Maybe he's just playing catch-up? :eek:

Sorry, the devil made me say that; it can't have been original.
 
Peder said:
And here, minus quoted quotes is the authors response, original post # 638 repeated for ready reference

Sorry for what may seem like needless repetition, but I have difficulty integrating posts and thoughts across such a long time frame and so many intervening posts.
Now to ponder,
Peder
No, I'm glad you are gathering it together, more understandable. :)
 
tomato said:
I am the author of that article.
I didn't quote any professional literature from that time because there wasn't any.
Nabokov must have come up with these insights from introspection.

I haven't found any such writing, but here is one psychiatrist who thinks Nabokov was a pedophile:

Centerwall, B. S. 1992. Vladimir Nabokov: A case study in pedophilia. Psychoanalysis and Contemporary Thought 15: 199-239.
Hi tomato,
Back again.
In looking through your article again, I am if anything more impressed than previously with the number of references you were able to assemble.
But, as you say, it sounds like the pickings are slim for original psychiatric literature from the time. I had thought I might have an equally tough time getting hold of the Centerwall article that you point out, so I turned to google for any help it might offer. Was I ever mistaken! And what a flood of responses!

Responses to Search for Centerwall and Nabokov

It seems Centerwall is well known in the serious Nabokov community (and rather disliked as a 'rabid Nabokov hater' if I have that phrase right). The origin of his thoughts seems to be the well-worked-over relationship between Uncle Ruka and the child Nabokov, a topic already alluded to in these forums and resting on brief early mentions in Nabokov's own Speak Memory.

I haven't gone into the subject in detail myself. It is an old topic, probably as old as Lolita itself, and Nabokov has been called many things since then. The possible interest attaching to Centerwall of course is that he is (allegedly?) a psychiatrist.

I was wondering what your own reaction might be to the whole topic, or to Centerwall in particular since you mention him.

Peder
 
further re Centerwall

I've been browsing down through the citations generated by the Centerwall search and now see that finding the actual Centerwall article will not be as easy as I thought. There are a number of citations where people register their complete disagreement with him. There are a number of other citations where people accept what he said and weave it as valid conclusion into their own writing simply because he said it.

Amazing to me are the number of people who are completely unaware of the source material for Nabokov's life in Speak Memory but who willingly accept Centerwall's as a valid source description of Nabokov's early life and then accept Centerwall's allegations regarding Nabokov's (unknown) sexual proclivities.

Even more amazing to me is one citation where an author freely accepts Centerwall's allegations and then baldly states:
"As Brandon Centerwall has persuasively argued, Nabokov could legitimately be labeled a 'closet pedophile.' "
http://www.press.ntu.edu.tw/ejournal/Files/Studies/12/3.pdf

So, because someone else has (allegedly) "persuasively argued......"
therefore it is OK for this person to say that VN "could legitimately be labeled ......"

"Could legitimately" is not "is" or "was" or "in fact," but just the dodgy "could legitimately be" where the "legitimately" is someone else's subjective conclusion, not that author's own conclusion, but is nevertheless accepted at face value as plausible and factual.

And so the unsubstantiated third-hand and fourth-hand amateur psychoanalyzing goes on and on, casually denigrating the memory and integrity of a famous author because it makes little difference to such people that they paint him black. They have other purposes of their own in mind after all.

For myself I will not so casually give away someone else's reputation and standing and put it on the trash heap, famous or not, but instead will continue to require usual standards of objective and factual proof, instead of someone else's idea of so-called 'plausible conjecture'. Especially when a word such as 'pedophile' or other criminal description has been floated into the discussion. And I say that as someone who has read Speak Memory and is quite familiar with the relatively few actual words and limited description there. But that is perhaps for another post.

So Centerwall's actual article remains on the list to be tracked down and looked at to see what he bases his thoughts on. (If that all is worth the effort in the first place.)

As an added thought it is probably just as well that VN himself is not alive to see this mounting pile of rubbish, or else there would likely be a roar heard ten times around the world that would still be ringing in our ears. And "Viennese quack" would be the mildest of the pejoratives that I might imagine.

Peder
 
Plausible conjecture. Persuasively argued. Sounds like a load of.....claptrap.

If someone took the trouble to read first of all what VN himself says in Speak, Memory (as you say Peder), and then read what Boyd writes, and then examine the pictures that are in Boyd's bio, it would be apparent that certain others are speaking without knowledge.

One of the links you found Peder spoke of VN's mother's supposed complicity in the theoretical abuse. That alone would label their "conjectures" as false. Anyone that has read of her character and love for her child would realize that.

Unfortunately there are always those that will believe anything but the truth.

Thank you for your analysis Peder.
 
pontalba said:
....claptrap.
Excellent word, Pontalba!
I had a different two-syllable word in mind but was afraid B&R might not like it. :D
And you are so right! Anyone who reads the total picture will immediately see how little the detractors know the people of whom they are speaking. Especially with respect to Nabokov's mother!

It occurs to me that my whole post might be summarized in the time-honored way -- innocent until proven guilty. And that really means proven!.
Grrrr
Peder
 
To tomato, ( I guess),
I have continued to try to track down just who it was, exactly, who said what, exactly, about VN and pedophilia.
Re the "who," google searches for Centerwall, B. Centerwall, and B. S. Centerwall have turned up a number of individuals (related, I would guess) who wrote on topics such as TV, violence, guns and early theatre, in addition to the Nabokov article. The psychiatrist among them appears to be this gentleman:

psychiatrist

with a condensed professional biography that can be found here:

credentials

In trying to discover exactly what Dr. Centerwall said directly, I have not yet turned up a text of his article. The closest I have been able to come is to this journal abstract, professionally-written by Gonchar:

Abstract

My own skepticism remains at the same high levels as before.
Gonchar's statement that Centerwall
"...convincingly argues that Nabokov was a conscious pedophile .."
is not the same as
...proof that Nabokov was an actual pedophile ...
or even
...proof that Nabokov was a conscious pedophile ...
and the claim that Nabokov
"...acted out his perverse impulses through his writing."
is not the same as saying
...actually committed pedophilic acts.
In fact, nobody, but nobody, (including Centerwall) claims that VN engaged in any pedophilic acts.

It is also ridiculous in the extreme to remark adversely that, when VN wrote about pedophilia in his fictional characters, the descriptions agreed with what is known about pedophilia. VN was known as a careful observer and researcher and the agreement is not surprising for a careful author. Knowledge of criminality is not the same as being a criminal, as seems too obvious to point out.

It also seems to stretch credulity to refer to "genetic" origins for the perversion, and to further suggest that because Nabokov was the victim of his uncle (if he was) then he himself became a similar victimizer.

It is also worth noting that the phrase "was a conscious pedophile," as presented in the abstract, became "was a closet pedophile" when someone else referred to the article, and became "was a pedophile" when the article was offered in this thread by yourself. Thus do rumors grow and spread.

But enough! The original article is not yet at hand for examination. If you, tomato, could present a link to the full original article, then we all could see directly how the good Doctor formed his opinions.

Barring that, I have little more to say,
Discussing second-hand opinions is an exercise in futility, IMO,
Peder
 
tomato

I am going to assume that you continue to lurk. The very least thing that you can do is to reply to Peder's thoughtful and well-researched responses to your -- to your post.

Or are you only a hit-and-run tomato, thrown helter-skelter from the back of the peanut gallery?
 
StillILearn said:
I am going to assume that you continue to lurk. The very least thing that you can do is to reply to Peder's thoughtful and well-researched responses to your -- to your post.

Or are you only a hit-and-run tomato, thrown helter-skelter from the back of the peanut gallery?

SIL
Evidently he has nothing else.
Examined all the smilies, and none seem to cover my true feelings on the matter. :)
 
tomato's behavior in this instance says much about tomato and reveals nothing at all about Nabokov. One is left to wonder what tomato was google-ing in order to find this place in the first place.

Moto's site has some pretty expressive emoticons on it and he's not even there to guard them. Free for all!. :D
 
The walls have ears.
And right there I could use two earicons. :rolleyes:
Anyway, it was challenging.
 
You never stop challenging us, Professor, and I (for one) thank you for it. :) This one is going onto my (already staggering) TBR pile.
 
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