Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

[Peder]

Is writing a full novel from a short story plagiarism? For A level English our first assignment was to write a short story based on the lyrics to a song, surely that is too then. I guess I already know the answer to this... And how can someone unknowlingly copy a book, particularly if we go from that um... his name escapes me... that man who said there is only one story, and later gave two terms which basically said that one's writing is always based on what he/she has seen or heard before? Surely if it was a copy from another idea, it had to be intended...

Steffee,

The facts, just the facts, m'am, are: How to Read Literature Like a Professor by Thomas C. Foster, and the words are intertextuality and archetype. And, for your other questions, I'm sure that if we got two lawyers together they could surely give us three opinions.

Peder

 

[StillILearn]

Oh, Great StillILearn, I bow to thee of the ever changing (I love it!) avatar.

I'm trying to keep pace with Sitaram.

(Avatars are a piece of cake compared to that Insert Link thing. Some of the greatest minds on TBF have tried to help me do that, and always to no avail.)

 

[Peder]

Steffee,

The facts, just the facts, m'am, are: How to Read Literature Like a Professor by Thomas C. Foster, and the words are intertextuality and archetype. And, for your other questions, I'm sure that if we got two lawyers together they could surely give us three opinions.

Peder

Steffee,In rereading that post I notice that the final remark about the lawyers, intended humorously then. now sounds rather more abrupt than humorous to my ears. That was not my intention, to dismiss your question, but rather to reflect my own very uninformed thought that the standards for what constitutes 'copying' another's work are loose enough that the answers to your questions are far from foregone conclusions. In the realm of ideas, though, I don't think it is possible for anyone to 'own' an idea.
Hope you weren't put off by my answer.
Peder

 

[steffee]

Awww no Peder, course I wasn't offended. Your post did sound humourous (and very true!!). I have made a note Thomas C. Foster's name, and will look out for his book, it sounds very thought-provoking.

 

[StillILearn]

Is writing a full novel from a short story plagiarism? For A level English our first assignment was to write a short story based on the lyrics to a song, surely that is too then. I guess I already know the answer to this... And how can someone unknowlingly copy a book, particularly if we go from that um... his name escapes me... that man who said there is only one story, and later gave two terms which basically said that one's writing is always based on what he/she has seen or heard before? Surely if it was a copy from another idea, it had to be intended...

I guess if it's intended to be satire it's okay ?

 

[pontalba]

All Thing Nabokov.....

Tonight I read The Enchanter. If it is a precursor to Lolita, do not think it is a clone. It is not. It will leave you breathless.



Go 'way, I'm re-reading.......

 

[Peder]

I guess if it's intended to be satire it's okay ?

StillILearn,
Could you elaborate? Do you mean in general, or as rationale in connection with the alleged earlier Lolita short story? Or are you contemplating something?
The wikipedia article on Lolita doesn't help as much as I implied earlier. It names two names but the links are only to stubs. The informative link is to the general wikipedia topic 'plagiarism,' in general, and I don't see much help there either for answering your question.

Plagiarism

The issue seems to be usage without attribution, and is separate from copyright infringement -- news to me!

A google search on the phrase 'Lolita plagiarism' turned up only 19200 hits.
So it sounds like you can shed more light than I can, and now you have me curious about your comment.

Peder
One Curious Cat

 

[Peder]

Go 'way, I'm re-reading.......

Pontalba,
Will you give us each a cookie if we do?
Peder

 

[pontalba]

How about a nice big juicy gooey drippy Hot Fudge Sundae? And if you are all verra good, I'll post some quotes later...

 

[pontalba]

Later......

From on a Book Entitled The Enchanter, this is Dmitri Nabokov's 'afterword' to the book. p.97

The man is a dreamer like others, although in this case a very rotten dreamer. Distasteful as he may be, though, one of the most poignant levels of this story is that of his--occasionally objective--introspection on the basically evil protagonist's part Nabokov succeeds in transmitting compassion not only for the victims but, to a degree, for the villain himself.

Now I think that could be said for Humbert as well. But don't think this will have the same type of outcome as Lolita's........

And btw StillILearn, I think you will really like this one.

 

[StillILearn]

Oh, sorry! I was referring to Umberto Eco's Misreadings. I took this from the amazon site (more elegantly) provided by steffee:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0156607522/qid=1137092043/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-4278685-7251307?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

From Publishers Weekly

These 15 essays by semiotician and novelist Eco ( The Name of the Rose ) originally appeared in the 1960s and early 1970s in an Italian literary magazine; they appear here in English translation for the first time. The essays are actually satires, pastiches of publishing, art and literature. Typical is the first piece, a parody of Nabokov's Lolita in which the protagonist becomes obsessed with a white-haired old woman.

What in the world is a semiotician? One can only imagine! I guess I'd better go look it up.

 

[Peder]

How about a nice big juicy gooey drippy Hot Fudge Sundae? And if you are all verra good, I'll post some quotes later...

Pontalba,
We-e-ll Oh-Kay, if you promise. But first the hot fudge sundae.
I didn't realize the Enchanter novel(la) was so few pages, 77, with Dmitri's afterword filling out the remaining pages, to 109. That easily means it could get read read very quickly when I decide to pick it up. But it deinitely sounds like a fascinating read (I've been peeking at amazon, for shame , even though I have the book)
Keep rereading,
Peder

 

[StillILearn]

Tonight I read The Enchanter. If it is a precursor to Lolita, do not think it is a clone. It is not. It will leave you breathless.



Go 'way, I'm re-reading.......

Me too. Or re-re-listening, I should say. Please let me know what you think about Irons's howlingly ironic, scathing and tender rendition of HH? Jeremy will always be Humbert to me from now on. Sorry, James. I guess I'm just fickle.



Okay, I will try to find The Enchanter, but who on earth is Dmitri? I'll go google both right now. After I google that word they called Umberto Eco.

 

[pontalba]

But Peder, I must tell you, be prepared to read the entire novel(la) (as you appropriately say) and afterword all in one felled swoop.

It'll be mo bettah.

 

[pontalba]

Me too. Or re-re-listening, I should say. Please let me know what you think about Irons's howlingly ironic, scathing and tender rendition of HH? Jeremy will always be Humbert to me from now on. Sorry, James. I guess I'm just fickle.



Okay, I will try to find The Enchanter, but who on earth is Dmitri? I'll go google both right now. After I google that word they called Umberto Eco.

Dmitri Nabokov. VN's son/translator.

I have to buy a portable CD player. Dummy that I am, I didn't notice it was CD and not tapes.

 

[StillILearn]

semiotician
se·mi·ot·ics (s"Åm" otÆiks, semÅ"-, s"Åm#-), n. (used with a sing. v.)
1. the study of signs and symbols as elements of communicative behavior; the analysis of systems of communication, as language, gestures, or clothing.
2. a general theory of signs and symbolism, usually divided into the branches of pragmatics, semantics, and syntactics.
[1875–80; see SEMIOTIC, -ICS]
—se·mi·o·ti·cian (s"Åm" Ã tishÆÃn, semÅ"-, s"Åm#-), n.

 

[StillILearn]

Dmitri Nabokov. VN's son/translator.

I have to buy a portable CD player. Dummy that I am, I didn't notice it was CD and not tapes.

Ah. Thanks! Do buy one ASAP By page seventy-five of this thread we will all be in our respective poorhouses -- but reading -- reading!

 

[pontalba]

True, true.....I have to make a trip to the vet's today, but maybe I can get it tomorrow. Can't leave the dogs in the car and go into Wal Mart. LOL

But maybe I could picture James, and listen to Jeremy.....

 

[StillILearn]

We'll see if Jeremy doesn't win your heart as well.

 

[Peder]

To Steffee, StillILearn, Pontalba,
Harking 'way back to Steffee's original question, whether writing a novel from a short story is plagiarism, the Baker Street Irregulars have leaped into action and provided the following chronology

1910 and onward - VN and his family visited and lived in Berlin at various times

1916 - A 'German Lolita' short story published

1939 - Manuscript for VN's novella The Enchanter written

1950 - Sally Horner story hits the newspapers.

1955 - VN's novel Lolita published.

So it sounds possible that VN might have seen the Geman short story in Berlin, although I haven't seen any specific claim that he did. For myself I would much rather see the German short story itself before thinking about when/if, and how much/if any, might have been allegedly copied. The evidence that de Vere (?) wrote Shakespeare's plays, for example, has always seemed wildly unconvincing to me. Their writings are not even in the same league, even to my unpracticed eye.

The Baker Street Irregulars will therefore continue working at it (by trying better search phrases in google, and lickiing up gooey sundaes from Pontalba to help the thinking ), unless someone provides quicker answers in the meantime.

Peder