Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

[Peder]

Morning / afternoon all.

After a very enjoyable night viewing the first Lolita... I came by to tell you all how fantastic it is, though most of you already know that... After Peder advising me to watch the Irons one first, I was expecting it to be dull, with pretty charcters maybe, but little else (other than the amazing storyline, with which we're all already (quite) familiar with), but how wrong I was! Jeremy Irons doesn't fit the picture in my head of HH, but nevertheless, he was a good choice... I can see why people who have seen this version are quick to defend HH, just a little. But the character of Lolita was acted out brilliantly!! As was Quilty's.

I loved the ending! I loved it all, but especially the ending!!

There was a couple of shock moments too though... HH saying "I thought you preferred my magic fingers" But then it was an 18 certificate...

Steffee,
So glad you had an enjoyable evening at the movies!
Now you are making me want to look at it again. Especially for the ending. And after all this discussion. Time to dust off the DVD and the player, both within sight here on the desk, and start refreshing my memory. But first I have to do just a little real life in every day.

18 certificate == for 18-yr-olds and up?

Hold onto your seat for Sellers, coming up!
And there's no way you'll miss Shelley Winters!
Peder

BTW, Interested in The Enchanter? New forum coming up soon at a screen near you.

 

[steffee]

18 certificate == for 18-yr-olds and up?

Yeah... um, I'm not sure what the equivalent would be in the US, the closest I could find is this

The other Lolita is only a 15, which complicates the matter slightly, but is for over 15-year olds.

BTW, Interested in The Enchanter? New forum coming up soon at a screen near you.

Yes, I have to admit I'm getting more and more curious(er) about this The Enchanter business... Ada (or Ardor) might have to hold on for a little while longer...

 

[Peder]

The ending doesn't do justice to Humbert's smooth and calculated way, though perhaps after realizing that his dream(i.e.-Lo) was gone and no longer his, that life wasn't worth being too concerned about with pretenses.

SFG,
I never thought of it that way before, but yes it finally had to sink in that his dream, and his life, were all washed up.
As for the humor, right on! I would chucle out loud in the coffee shop as I was reading the book.
It sounds like you are at the point where the Big Question comes up. We are all ears. /looking innocent/
Peder

 

[SFG75]

For those who are curious about the pdf thesis I posted earlier, the writer's main premise is that the book spawned our current fascination with....sexualization of the young. She makes a correlation between the book, the Kubrick film, to Brittney Spears. She does provide some convincing evidence, but I would point out that during the time that this book was released, the "sexual revolution" was underway, birth control started to become accepted, and universities stopped being over-controlling in regards to college kids and their escapades. To ignore all of this and state that the book is responsible for a sexualized youth culture ignores other factors too important not to consider IMHO.

The thesis does have some interesting accounts of the Kubrick film. To get it past the censors, Kubrick wanted to hint at Humbert and Lo being married the whole time, but V.N. wouldn't have it. Before the book was published, Nabokov nearly destroyed the opening chapters of Lolita, but didn't do so at the urging of his wife. Amazing how intelligentpeople destroy their own work because they think it is poor. Until later.

 

[SFG75]

SFG,
I never thought of it that way before, but yes it finally had to sink in that his dream, and his life, were all washed up.
As for the humor, right on! I would chucle out loud in the coffee shop as I was reading the book.
It sounds like you are at the point where the Big Question comes up. We are all ears. /looking innocent/
Peder

Interesting tidbit Peder. If you check out page 59 of the pdf thesis I posted, the good graduate student covers the part of Humbert killing Quilty. Interestingly enough, Kubrick portrayed Humbert as some effiminate professor trying to get the best of a man who insults him the entire time. Upon being confronted, Quilty, states that he is Spartacus. He then proceeds to call Humbert a bad loser when James Mason(Humbert) pulls the gun on him. The part where Quilty puts on boxing gloves to go out like "a champ" is also cited by the student. I would love to see the portion of the film to see if he looks as defiant as the student portrays him to be. Ohhhhhhh the things to look forward to!.

 

[Peder]

Yeah... um, I'm not sure what the equivalent would be in the US,

Steffe,
Neither am I actually, but I didn't know we had a dividing line up around 17 or 18. News to me! I thought our PG's (Parental Guidance required) topped out at about 13. Which was why I asked, with my eyebrows just a little raised. But now that I am finally (finally!) old enough to indulge my own preferences, I am not up on those limits any more. Mine simply says "R," one stge above "X rated," and the other one, "Not rated", which is a way to avoid getting X-rated. I thought we in the US would be more conservative than anywhere. Maybe "R" is the older form of that NC-17 you showed.
Dunno. All I know is that they are great films!
Peder

 

[Peder]

For those who are curious about the pdf thesis I posted earlier, the writer's main premise is that the book spawned our current fascination with....sexualization of the young. She makes a correlation between the book, the Kubrick film, to Brittney Spears. She does provide some convincing evidence, but I would point out that during the time that this book was released, the "sexual revolution" was underway, birth control started to become accepted, and universities stopped being over-controlling in regards to college kids and their escapades. To ignore all of this and state that the book is responsible for a sexualized youth culture ignores other factors too important not to consider IMHO.

The thesis does have some interesting accounts of the Kubrick film. To get it past the censors, Kubrick wanted to hint at Humbert and Lo being married the whole time, but V.N. wouldn't have it. Before the book was published, Nabokov nearly destroyed the opening chapters of Lolita, but didn't do so at the urging of his wife. Amazing how intelligentpeople destroy their own work because they think it is poor. Until later.

SFG,
No, it wasn't Nabokov who spawned sex. It was in the air and surprisingly it began with the parents! I remember the nearby women's college having increasing difficulty gettng the girls to live on campus and obey curfew rules in all-girl dorms(!) in the early 60's. They felt that they stood in loco parentis for the girls in their charge living away from home and believed they were acting responsibly. So they finally decided to poll the parents. They were totally astounded to discover that the parents, the parents mind you!, said "Let'em be. Let 'em do what they want." Quick as a flash the college got out of the middle of that one!

So, Brittney Spears is only the latest (and she is aging, OMG ). I think that master's student isn't yet old enough to realize that the world has always been going to Hell in a handbasket. Ever since Roman times the way I read it.

Do the parents out your way, in the conservative center of America, take exception to those short short skirts you mentioned? I bet not seriously.
Peder

 

[SFG75]

Steffe,
Neither am I actually, but I didn't know we had a dividing line up around 17 or 18. News to me! I thought our PG's (Parental Guidance required) topped out at about 13. Which was why I asked, with my eyebrows just a little raised. But now that I am finally (finally!) old enough to indulge my own preferences, I am not up on those limits any more. Mine simply says "R," one stge above "X rated," and the other one, "Not rated", which is a way to avoid getting X-rated. I thought we in the US would be more conservative than anywhere. Maybe "R" is the older form of that NC-17 you showed.
Dunno. All I know is that they are great films!
Peder

If you had a daughter who loved acting and was 12-would you let her try out for the role of Lolita?

Got that one from the thesis student who noted how the Kubrick film was castigated as immoral, while the producers received a deluge of videotapes of perspective actresses to play Lo's part.

 

[SFG75]

Do the parents out your way, in the conservative center of America, take exception to those short short skirts you mentioned? I bet not seriously.
Peder

Actually, the principal catches hell for enforcing the dress code. She walks around with a ruler during the first month of school and will pull girls out at random. As faculty, we are supposed to handle it as well, though I have an agreement with her to just e-mail her about offenders. All it takes is for one of them to say: "Why are you looking?" and your retirement may suddenly disappear. So I play dumb and have the boss handle it.

 

[steffee]

Steffe,
Neither am I actually, but I didn't know we had a dividing line up around 17 or 18. News to me! I thought our PG's (Parental Guidance required) topped out at about 13. Which was why I asked, with my eyebrows just a little raised. But now that I am finally (finally!) old enough to indulge my own preferences, I am not up on those limits any more. Mine simply says "R," one stge above "X rated," and the other one, "Not rated", which is a way to avoid getting X-rated. I thought we in the US would be more conservative than anywhere. Maybe "R" is the older form of that NC-17 you showed.
Dunno. All I know is that they are great films!
Peder

Well... having read up on it all over on the fantastic wikipedia, the 'R' you mention apparently is the older version of NC-17 but means that under 17s, can watch it too, with a parent's permission. Or something like that. Over here, an 18 is an 18, and under-18s are not allowed to watch it at all (though I don't suppose anyone would know), or buy it, or enter a cinema etc, and the same with a 15, but the new 12 means parents of under-12s, can choose to allow their child to watch it as they wish. Wikipedia says that X-rated are films that contain excessive violent or sexual scenes (pornography), but over here it doesn't take a lot for a film to be dubbed an 18. It would be helpful to have X-rated classification. We have PG too, but they are usually reserved for family films, like Beethoven or something.

SFG, great link. I am on reading through it... I love the images at the end

 

[Peder]

Interestingly enough, Kubrick portrayed Humbert as some effiminate professor trying to get the best of a man who insults him the entire time. Upon being confronted, Quilty, states that he is Spartacus. He then proceeds to call Humbert a bad loser when James Mason(Humbert) pulls the gun on him. The part where Quilty puts on boxing gloves to go out like "a champ" is also cited by the student. I would love to see the portion of the film to see if he looks as defiant as the student portrays him to be. Ohhhhhhh the things to look forward to!.

SFG,
"Effeminate" I wouldn't necessarily say. That's not what I saw. More like cultivated and dignified, and with a James Mason accent. But, yes, exasperated that he cannot get the better of Quilty in the exchange of words going on. And of course not helped by having to stand still for Sellers' completely dominating the scene (deliberately, per Kubrick) while he Mason essentially watched. There isn't much acting goes on by Mason in that scene. it is all Sellers!
But, yes, ya gotta see it!
Peder

 

[Peder]

Got that one from the thesis student who noted how the Kubrick film was castigated as immoral, while the producers received a deluge of videotapes of perspective actresses to play Lo's part.

SFG,
Oh that is so perfect. Almost nothing more need be said on the whole topic, ever.
Pedeer

 

[SFG75]

SFG,
Oh that is so perfect. Almost nothing more need be said on the whole topic, ever.
Pedeer

You say more about a topic when you say nothing at all(apologies to Allison Krauss) Yes, I'm certain they want actresses with a perspective on the novel, but prospective actresses are the more desirable. I shouldn't type today.

 

[Peder]

Actually, the principal catches hell for enforcing the dress code. She walks around with a ruler during the first month of school and will pull girls out at random. As faculty, we are supposed to handle it as well, though I have an agreement with her to just e-mail her about offenders. All it takes is for one of them to say: "Why are you looking?" and your retirement may suddenly disappear. So I play dumb and have the boss handle it.

That is exactly what I would have expected on both halves of your post. I have heard of ruler measurements, though it seems quaint. I always wonder where they measure from (presumably the waist), but what if a girl is sort of long in the waist? (Immoral to imagine ) Or chooses to hitch her skirt up to her actual waist instead of letting it ride low? (Now I'll have to scrub my brain with soap and water.) The principal has a losing battle.

Not the least because of the force behind the second part of your post. One dare not give the least cause for offense, there or here. Some good NY lawyers out your way would change things in a hurry! And then the kids would be completely in charge. Probably necking in the back of the classroom.

Sorry! Off topic!
All is well in the world, and could not be better
peder

 

[Peder]

Yes, I'm certain they want actresses with a perspective on the novel, but prospective actresses are the more desirable. I shouldn't type today.

SFG,
Maybe not, but you do get the gist across!
peder

PS But I would hate for you to take your advice!

 

[Peder]

Well... having read up on it all over on the fantastic wikipedia, the 'R' you mention apparently is the older version of NC-17 but means that under 17s, can watch it too, with a parent's permission. Or something like that. Over here, an 18 is an 18, and under-18s are not allowed to watch it at all (though I don't suppose anyone would know), or buy it, or enter a cinema etc, and the same with a 15, but the new 12 means parents of under-12s, can choose to allow their child to watch it as they wish. Wikipedia says that X-rated are films that contain excessive violent or sexual scenes (pornography), but over here it doesn't take a lot for a film to be dubbed an 18. It would be helpful to have X-rated classification. We have PG too, but they are usually reserved for family films, like Beethoven or something.

SFG, great link. I am on reading through it... I love the images at the end

Steffee,
It sounds like both sides of the Atlantic are wrestling with the same problem and with standards approximately in the same place, only what to do about them being handled differently.
I went to see the last Harry Potter movie, Goblet of Fire, and I thought for sure it was PG-13. Yet I was surrounded, absolutely surrounded, by a sea of 10-yr-olds, and younger, being escorted in by the herd, apparently by mothers designated for the task. And the theater was jam packed, with not a single person seeming guilty about bringing the children, and with the children looking forward to an absolute blast of a time.
Go figure!
peder

 

[Peder]

Time for lunch.
I'll be back,
Peder

 

[pontalba]

by Steffee Yes, I have to admit I'm getting more and more curious(er) about this The Enchanter business... Ada (or Ardor) might have to hold on for a little while longer...

I certainly hope so! The echo of Lolita. Some similar, but very different finally.

 

[pontalba]

SFG,
"Effeminate" I wouldn't necessarily say. That's not what I saw. More like cultivated and dignified, and with a James Mason accent. But, yes, exasperated that he cannot get the better of Quilty in the exchange of words going on. And of course not helped by having to stand still for Sellers' completely dominating the scene (deliberately, per Kubrick) while he Mason essentially watched. There isn't much acting goes on by Mason in that scene. it is all Sellers!
But, yes, ya gotta see it!
Peder

Quilty was a charlatan and a finagler of the most dishonest stripe. While John Ray Jr., proclaims that Humbert is not a gentleman, he certainly fits the old-fashioned definition of that word in many ways. Someone like Quilty would never understand the moral dilemma that Humbert faced regarding his behaviour with Lolita.

 

[SFG75]

I certainly hope so! The echo of Lolita. Some similar, but very different finally.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the previous work have a hotel scene where Humbert and another man run into one another while having their *nymphs* beside them? Just something that was mentioned in the pdf document.