Vladimir Nabokov: The Enchanter

[Peder]

Actually, no. I meant that Humbert was the more melancholy and guilt ridden or the two. At least it was expressed as that to my eyes.

Pontalba,
Now that has me curious!
Can you elaborate, even a teensy bit?
I feel very insecure when you see things differently. Not as insecure as Arthur, er Humbert.
But you know......insecure.
Peder

 

[pontalba]

Peder
OK, I'm back, the Westminster Dog Show was on USA tv....all the way from Madison Square Garden!! Yay!! But the German Shepard didn't win...phooey!

I can't at the moment pull up any specific instances and page numbers as to why I feel that Humbert was the more melancholy and the most guilty conscience. I think it partially is because we understand more of his background, and the reasons he was the way he was. Maybe its because HH was more expressive of his feelings. It even could be the influence of James Mason's performance. He did tortured feelings sooo verra well. Or Irons vocal performance on the CD, the inflections were just.....lets just say confirming of all my "vibe catcher instinct". Now. If that makes any sense at all! But I think Mostly, its the way Humbert let Lolita go in the end. Selflessly. Generously. Loveingly. In spite of all the terrible things he did during their road trip, he ended it well.

The scene where Humbert sees Lolita for the first time was so powerfully created by VN, that the reader could see all Humbert saw, past and present, the coming together of the two in that split second of recognition. Perhaps if Arthur had been given more than a few lines of background, with more understanding of his "affliction", I would feel differently. But Arthur was a colder, less passionate, more calculating sort. That is also what makes him more unattractive to the reader, and less sympathetic in the end.

But thats just me.

Intuition. Vibes et als.....

 

[pontalba]

Also...........remember Humbert was constantly committing himself to institutions? Melancholia. He was very aware of the wrongness of his feelings, and his conscience constantly did battle with his desires. IM(H)O.

 

[Peder]

Peder
OK, I'm back, the Westminster Dog Show was on USA tv....all the way from Madison Square Garden!! Yay!! But the German Shepard didn't win...phooey!

I can't at the moment pull up any specific instances and page numbers as to why I feel that Humbert was the more melancholy and the most guilty conscience. I think it partially is because we understand more of his background, and the reasons he was the way he was. Maybe its because HH was more expressive of his feelings. It even could be the influence of James Mason's performance. He did tortured feelings sooo verra well. Or Irons vocal performance on the CD, the inflections were just.....lets just say confirming of all my "vibe catcher instinct". Now. If that makes any sense at all! But I think Mostly, its the way Humbert let Lolita go in the end. Selflessly. Generously. Loveingly. In spite of all the terrible things he did during their road trip, he ended it well.

The scene where Humbert sees Lolita for the first time was so powerfully created by VN, that the reader could see all Humbert saw, past and present, the coming together of the two in that split second of recognition. Perhaps if Arthur had been given more than a few lines of background, with more understanding of his "affliction", I would feel differently. But Arthur was a colder, less passionate, more calculating sort. That is also what makes him more unattractive to the reader, and less sympathetic in the end.

But thats just me.

Intuition. Vibes et als.....

Well, Pontalba,
You may say intuition or vibes, but it all sounds correct to me. Especially at the end, Humbert showed generosity and a conscience, while Arthur was calculating throughout. And definitely less appealing to the reader. So yes it is true that Arthur was introspective, not because of guilt, but only to assess his plan and figure out how to get further toward what he wanted, whereas Humbert did really realize that his own behavior had been bad, when he thought about it. Hence guilt for Humbert, none by Arthur. I'll buy that. Feelings of security are restored

Mne tnx,
I knew you knew the answer
Peder

 

[pontalba]

Well, Pontalba,
.......yes it is true that Arthur was introspective, not because of guilt, but only to assess his plan and figure out how to get further toward what he wanted, whereas Humbert did really realize that his own behavior had been bad, when he thought about it.

Now you see! You brought the analysis full circle. Its very true that Arthur only analyzed what he did, as to improve on the badness....what a Prince! NOT......

 

[Peder]

Oh come on, fifteen seconds is enough time to create a well-thought out post. What do you think this is....a book forum where people post more than one or two sentences at a time?

SFG,
More ROTFALOL!
You sure are in a jovial mood lately!
And we sure can do with it, for all the misery we discuss that our protagonists cause.
I like it, I like it!

Peder

 

[pontalba]

Oh come on, fifteen seconds is enough time to create a well-thought out post. What do you think this is....a book forum where people post more than one or two sentences at a time?

Now SFG! Us'ms wouldn't be guilty of a dasterdly deed of that magnitude...! /she called back, whilst running for cover/

 

[Peder]

Also...........remember Humbert was constantly committing himself to institutions? Melancholia. He was very aware of the wrongness of his feelings, and his conscience constantly did battle with his desires. IM(H)O.

Pontalba,
Another post that appeared while I was typing!
I'm going to have to cut back to those two sentences that SFG was talking about
What you say in your added post is true too. He was in frequent battle with his feelings. I'm not sure he thought of it as conscience, but he sure did realize that his behavior/feelings needed moderating and took steps to do it. Maybe conscience is the word. I can't quite think of another. Self interest?
That would take careful reading of the text to sort out.
Peder

 

[Peder]

And time for bed here!
CU later today

 

[pontalba]

Pontalba,
Another post that appeared while I was typing!
I'm going to have to cut back to those two sentences that SFG was talking about
What you say in your added post is true too. He was in frequent battle with his feelings. I'm not sure he thought of it as conscience, but he sure did realize that his behavior/feelings needed moderating and took steps to do it. Maybe conscience is the word. I can't quite think of another. Self interest?
Peder

Not self-interest. As far as I am concerned at least. The conscience is the inner voice that guides us as to the rightness or incorrectness of our actions. It depends on just how that conscience is trained as it is not necessarily automatic. From what little HH said of his upbringing, it was a decent upbringing. His aunt evidently from what he said, was a sweet and moral woman. Even if she did allow HH's father to lead her around by the nose. She did her best by Humbert and gave him the basis. But events, such as the 'Annabel Affair', and whatever psycological imprint Humberts father made on him (couldn't have been that good) were opposing factors.

HH may not have realized it was his conscience, but I feel that it was.

 

[pontalba]

Now the fact that Arthur (IMO) flung himself in front of that truck, in a way leads me to believe that he had a rather underdeveloped conscience. The rudiments were there, but not fully realized. At least by the reader.

 

[Peder]

Now the fact that Arthur (IMO) flung himself in front of that truck, in a way leads me to believe that he had a rather underdeveloped conscience. The rudiments were there, but not fully realized. At least by the reader.

Pontalba,
I'll definitely go with you that Arthur had no conscience! And I had my doubts even earlier than the truck. He was definitely one bundle of selfish motivation. And, thinking of it now, the truck might have been his only solution, because there was no going back and retrieving the situation he had created with the girl (whom he was supposed to be taking care of). He really tore it right there and effectively ended any decent life for himself. He, or any shred of conscience that he might have had, should have thought of that sooner! So definite thumbs down on Arthur. (duh!)

But having written that, and thinking about it, it seems so harsh. Here was a guy who held himself together for twenty-five years, and then just broke. It really is too bad that he couldn't have kept on going along as he had been, one foot in front of the other. But maybe that's the story of most criminals in jail. A sorry thought to begin a day.
Peder

 

[Peder]

Not self-interest. As far as I am concerned at least. The conscience is the inner voice that guides us as to the rightness or incorrectness of our actions..... HH may not have realized it was his conscience, but I feel that it was.

Pontalba,
You are certainly right about conscience being the voice that prods us along to be doing what we ought to be doing, rather than what we might want to be doing. And there was something telling Humbert he ought to be getting himself into a hospital for treatment. Sometimes he made a lark of it, but I can't remember that he ever did it to become a better girl catcher. Maybe rereading will prove me wrong, but I'll be very surprised then, and have to reevaluate my view of him.
He too finally overstepped proper bounds but I suppose was fortunate to have fate (McFate) help him out and get Lo away from him. Then finally he could come to his senses, at least with respect to her (and with the help of Rita!). The revenge didn't go out of his system so fast, but when it was finally all over he did come back to his senses and fully realize the wrong that he had done to his very own Lolita. And that word 'wrong' is what has to show a conscience.

So, good call Pontalba! Your generous soul prevails.
That's a nicer thought to start a day on.

Have a good one,
Peder

 

[SFG75]

Now the fact that Arthur (IMO) flung himself in front of that truck, in a way leads me to believe that he had a rather underdeveloped conscience. The rudiments were there, but not fully realized. At least by the reader.

The worst part of his behavior came when the poor girl awoke and started her primal scream. His lack of conscience to me really comes to light here when he is under great stress.

Pathetically downplaying what whappened:

Be quiet, it's nothing bad, it's just a kind of game, it happens sometimes, just be quiet,...

Threatens:

I'll make you quiet down!

Emotionally terrorizes:

All right, I'll leave, I'll make you-

Arthur is a nihilist with manners.

 

[SFG75]

Here was a guy who held himself together for twenty-five years, and then just broke. It really is too bad that he couldn't have kept on going along as he had been, one foot in front of the other.

This is a notable thing. The man had somewhat of a stable life, other than his fixation with young *nymphets* which he constantly tried to angle himself to be near. He was a sick individual though. He allowed his impulses and desire to get the better of himself. A lack of self-control? Perhaps the only reason why he lasted so long was that an opportunity of exploitation had never presented itself so obviously before. He could oogle in public, he could admire on the park bench, but a sick widow with a 12 year old daughter doesn't become a part of one's life all that often, if at all.

 

[Peder]

This is a notable thing. The man had somewhat of a stable life, other than his fixation with young *nymphets* which he constantly tried to angle himself to be near. He was a sick individual though. He allowed his impulses and desire to get the better of himself. A lack of self-control? Perhaps the only reason why he lasted so long was that an opportunity of exploitation had never presented itself so obviously before. He could oogle in public, he could admire on the park bench, but a sick widow with a 12 year old daughter doesn't become a part of one's life all that often, if at all.

SFG,
Right on with that phrase! He was a sick individual and he needed psychiatric care, no matter what VN might have thought.

Actually I wonder what VN actually did think. Whether he accepted the notion of mental illness and psychiatric care, and just objected to the Freudian formulation of things, or what?

Peder

 

[pontalba]

Then finally he could come to his senses, at least with respect to her (and with the help of Rita!). The revenge didn't go out of his system so fast, but when it was finally all over he did come back to his senses and fully realize the wrong that he had done to his very own Lolita. And that word 'wrong' is what has to show a conscience.

Peder
"Come back to his senses". Thats about it. When the whole thing started observe HH's feelings--p,140 Lolita

Whether or not the realization of a lifelong dream had surpassed all expectation, it had, in a sense, overshot its mark--and plunged into a nightmare. I had been careless, stupid, and ignoble. And let me be quite frank: somewhere at the bottom of that dark turmoil I felt the writhing of desire again, so monstrous was my appetite for that miserable nymphet. Mingled with the pangs of guilt was the agonizing thought that her mood might prevent me from making love to her again as soon as I found a nice country road where to park in peace. In other words. poor Humbert Humbert was dreadfully unhappy, and while steadily and inanely driving.......

Whew! Talk about torn feelings and see how everything hinged on Lolita's feelings. I have to suppose that is why in my mind she shouldered a large portion of the blame. Which is unfair. She was a child, and should not be expected to understand the ramifications of her "moodiness" and "curiosity". But still................/sigh/

 

[pontalba]

SFG,
Right on with that phrase! He was a sick individual and he needed psychiatric care, no matter what VN might have thought.

Actually I wonder what VN actually did think. Whether he accepted the notion of mental illness and psychiatric care, and just objected to the Freudian formulation of things, or what?

Peder

Somewhere, sometime ago I read/heard/saw somewhere that the "cure" rate for pedophiles is so low as to be non-existant. True? I certainly don't know, but I suspect it has more than one grain of truth to it.

 

[pontalba]

This is a notable thing. The man had somewhat of a stable life, other than his fixation with young *nymphets* which he constantly tried to angle himself to be near. He was a sick individual though. He allowed his impulses and desire to get the better of himself. A lack of self-control? Perhaps the only reason why he lasted so long was that an opportunity of exploitation had never presented itself so obviously before. He could oogle in public, he could admire on the park bench, but a sick widow with a 12 year old daughter doesn't become a part of one's life all that often, if at all.

What is the phrase? Necessity is the Mother of Invention. The portion of his mind saw the opportunity, and just moved on in. It was so automatic that he barely thought about it. Yes, he was highly nervous about the whole thing, but it was as though a cheetah had spotted a gazelle on the open plain unprotected.

 

[StillILearn]

Now you see! You brought the analysis full circle. Its very true that Arthur only analyzed what he did, as to improve on the badness....what a Prince! NOT......

This is what my last lost post was about right here, pontalba. You guys are getting to know your man (I should say men) so incredibly well that I felt encouraged to ask:

Why do you think HH was checking himself into the looney bins with such frequency? I don't believe for one moment that he was trying to cure himself of his nympholepsy, but obviously there were times when he wanted (needed) to get help for something. And then, of course, in his own self-defeating way, he'd play games with the psychiatrists' minds (not to mention his own), but what do you suppose it was that was so troubling to him that he kept trying to 'cure' it?

The imp inside my head is screaming, "His conscience! He was hoping to somehow ditch his conscience inside one of those places!"

This is, of course, a malady from which Arthur did not suffer.